3 ms·

So... it would be a lot cheaper to just buy all of the books?

_alternator_ 1y ago
They did, but only after they pirated the books to begin with.
privatelypublic 1y ago
Few. This settlement potentially weakens all challenges to the use of copyrighted works in training LLM's. I'd be shocked if behind closed doors there wasn't some give and take on the matter between Executives/investors. A settlement means the claimants no longer have a claim, which means if they're also part of- say, the New York Times affiliated lawsuit- they have to withdraw. A neat way of kneecapping a country wide decision that LLM training on copy written material is subject to punitive measures don't you think?
- freejazz 1y ago
  That's not even remotely true. Page 4 of the settlement describes released claims which only relate to the pirating of books. Again, the amount of misinformation and misunderstanding I see in copyright related threads here ASTOUNDS.
  - privatelypublic 1y ago
    Did you miss the "also" how about "adjacent"? I won't pretend to understand the legal minutia, but reading the settlement doesn't mean you do either. In my experience&training in a fintech corp- Accepting a settlement in any suit weakens your defense- but prevents a judgement and future claims for the same claims from the same claimants (a la double jeopardy). So, again- at minimum- this prevents an actual judgement. Which, likely would be positive for the NYT (and adjacent) cases.
    - freejazz 1y ago
      I'm not sure how your confusion about what's going on is being projected to me. What about "also" what about "adjacent"? >In my experience&training in a fintech corp- Accepting a settlement in any suit weakens your defense- but prevents a judgement and future claims for the same claims from the same claimants (a la double jeopardy). So, again- at minimum- this prevents an actual judgement. Which, likely would be positive for the NYT (and adjacent) cases. Okay? I'm an IP litigator and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The only thing left to try in this case was the book library piracy. Alsup's fair use decision is just as relevant and is not mooted by the settlement and will be cited by anyone that thinks its favorable to them.
privatelypublic 1y ago
The permission to buy them was already settled by Google Books in the 00's.
gpm 1y ago
Yes, much. And they actually went and did that afterwards. They just pirated them first.
- dude250711 1y ago
  What is the HN term for this? "Bootstrapping" your start up? Or is it "growth-hacking" it?
  - gpm 1y ago
    The latter (I know you're joking, but...) Bootstrapping in the startup world refers to starting a startup using only personal resources instead of using investors. Anthropic definitely had investors.
  - chrisvenum 1y ago
    Bookstrapping
- rise_before_sun 1y ago
  Where can I find source that says Anthropic bought the pirated books afterwards? I haven't seen this in any official document. Also, do we know if the newer models were trained without the pirated books?
  - gpm 1y ago
    > Where can I find source that says Anthropic bought the pirated books afterwards? I haven't seen this in any official document. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.434709/gov.uscourts.cand.434709.231.0_4.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.43... > Also, do we know if the newer models were trained without the pirated books? I'm pretty sure we do but I couldn't swear to it or quickly locate a source.
    - rise_before_sun 1y ago
      Thanks for the link. Among several places where judge mentions Anthropic buying legit copies of books it pirated, probably this sentence is most relevant: "That Anthropic later bought a copy of a book it earlier stole off the internet will not absolve it of liability for the theft but it may affect the extent of statutory damages." But document does not say Anthropic bought EVERY book it pirated. Other sections in the document also don't explicitly say that EVERY pirated book was later purchased. I stopped using Claude when this case came to light. If the newer Claude models don't use pirated books, I can resume using it. When you say, "I'm pretty sure we do...", do you mean that pirated books were used, or were they not used?
eviks 1y ago
That might be practically impossible given the number of rights holders worldwide

They did, but only after they pirated the books to begin with.

Few. This settlement potentially weakens all challenges to the use of copyrighted works in training LLM's. I'd be shocked if behind closed doors there wasn't some give and take on the matter between Executives/investors. A settlement means the claimants no longer have a claim, which means if they're also part of- say, the New York Times affiliated lawsuit- they have to withdraw. A neat way of kneecapping a country wide decision that LLM training on copy written material is subject to punitive measures don't you think?

freejazz 1y ago
That's not even remotely true. Page 4 of the settlement describes released claims which only relate to the pirating of books. Again, the amount of misinformation and misunderstanding I see in copyright related threads here ASTOUNDS.
- privatelypublic 1y ago
  Did you miss the "also" how about "adjacent"? I won't pretend to understand the legal minutia, but reading the settlement doesn't mean you do either. In my experience&training in a fintech corp- Accepting a settlement in any suit weakens your defense- but prevents a judgement and future claims for the same claims from the same claimants (a la double jeopardy). So, again- at minimum- this prevents an actual judgement. Which, likely would be positive for the NYT (and adjacent) cases.
  - freejazz 1y ago
    I'm not sure how your confusion about what's going on is being projected to me. What about "also" what about "adjacent"? >In my experience&training in a fintech corp- Accepting a settlement in any suit weakens your defense- but prevents a judgement and future claims for the same claims from the same claimants (a la double jeopardy). So, again- at minimum- this prevents an actual judgement. Which, likely would be positive for the NYT (and adjacent) cases. Okay? I'm an IP litigator and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The only thing left to try in this case was the book library piracy. Alsup's fair use decision is just as relevant and is not mooted by the settlement and will be cited by anyone that thinks its favorable to them.

privatelypublic 1y ago

The permission to buy them was already settled by Google Books in the 00's.

gpm 1y ago

Yes, much. And they actually went and did that afterwards. They just pirated them first.

dude250711 1y ago
What is the HN term for this? "Bootstrapping" your start up? Or is it "growth-hacking" it?
- gpm 1y ago
  The latter (I know you're joking, but...) Bootstrapping in the startup world refers to starting a startup using only personal resources instead of using investors. Anthropic definitely had investors.
- chrisvenum 1y ago
  Bookstrapping
rise_before_sun 1y ago
Where can I find source that says Anthropic bought the pirated books afterwards? I haven't seen this in any official document. Also, do we know if the newer models were trained without the pirated books?
- gpm 1y ago
  > Where can I find source that says Anthropic bought the pirated books afterwards? I haven't seen this in any official document. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.434709/gov.uscourts.cand.434709.231.0_4.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.43... > Also, do we know if the newer models were trained without the pirated books? I'm pretty sure we do but I couldn't swear to it or quickly locate a source.
  - rise_before_sun 1y ago
    Thanks for the link. Among several places where judge mentions Anthropic buying legit copies of books it pirated, probably this sentence is most relevant: "That Anthropic later bought a copy of a book it earlier stole off the internet will not absolve it of liability for the theft but it may affect the extent of statutory damages." But document does not say Anthropic bought EVERY book it pirated. Other sections in the document also don't explicitly say that EVERY pirated book was later purchased. I stopped using Claude when this case came to light. If the newer Claude models don't use pirated books, I can resume using it. When you say, "I'm pretty sure we do...", do you mean that pirated books were used, or were they not used?

eviks 1y ago

That might be practically impossible given the number of rights holders worldwide