4 ms·

your tax money broadly speaking doesn't go to BART; it's massively underfunded. not sure why they are the target of the snark.

nradov 1y ago
Under funded relative to what? What would the optimal amount of funding be? Are there ways that BART could cut costs to free up budget for IT upgrades? I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that for regular citizens who don't have time to attend BART BoD and committee meetings it's almost impossible to tell whether existing money is being wisely spent. So people get the impression that taxes are going up while service quality declines and assume the money must be going into someone's pocket.
- lokar 1y ago
  In nearly all of the US there is an unresolved (and perhaps unresolvable) debate about to what extent public transit should get a subsidy vs pay for itself. The dominant position (even in CA) has been no or little subsidy.
  - aafanah 1y ago
    The bigger issue is not just the upgrade but how brittle the system is. Modern practices like rolling releases or safe fallback modes are standard elsewhere. Critical infrastructure should not be this fragile.
    - lokar 1y ago
      I would assume the IT side is just as underfunded as the rest of the system, probably more (they will prioritize safety and rolling stock)
  - flerchin 1y ago
    In no way does BART pay for itself. 22% of their operating costs are covered by fares. Public transit is an amenity paid for by taxes. Private transport also has its own subsidy, but it's not even close. https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/BART_FY24%20PAFR_final.pdf https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/BART_FY24%2...
    - roboror 1y ago
      But if single-occupancy vehicles don't cover the costs of the infrastructure they use, the ridership moving from public to private may incur even higher costs.
    - bell-cot 1y ago
      > Private transport also has its own subsidy, but it's not even close. So - what % of Cali's road construction & maintenance is paid for by gas taxes?
      - flerchin 1y ago
        That's difficult to untangle due to multiple agencies. Local, State, and Federal. However, the answer is the overwhelming majority of road construction and maintenance is paid for by gas taxes, car registration, and tolls.
        wbl 1y ago
        The highway fund gets a massive amount of money from the general budget every year federally.
      - ggreer 1y ago
        If I'm reading this report correctly[1], California's car registration fees and gas taxes cover more than the cost of roads. Caltrans estimates $20.2 billion in revenue from fuel taxes and vehicle registration fees, while their budget is $18.7 billion. It also looks like public transportation is mostly paid for with sales taxes, federal loans/grants, and $1 billion of taxes on diesel fuel. 1. See chart A on page 24, and chart F on page 28: https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/budgets/documents/financial-package-summary-202526-signedadaa11y.pdf https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/budgets/docume...
        bkettle 1y ago
        Note that Caltrans only maintains state roads; looks like from that document that they distribute some money to localities but as far as I can tell we can't see what fraction of local road maintenance that covers. Of course localities also have parking fees, traffic tickets, etc that can help cover road maintenance.
- kelnos 1y ago
  And this is the problem. If you "don't have time" to be civically engaged, then you're woefully uninformed, and you shouldn't complain about how your tax dollars are allocated, because you simply have no idea what you're complaining or arguing about.
  - ninetyninenine 1y ago
    No it’s not. Bart is just really bad, and don’t blame lack of civil engagement. We don’t have time for this shit. Plenty of countries have good public infrastructure without the need for everyone to be engaged. It’s like saying crime is a problem in this world because of your lack of engagement in stopping crime. Bitching on HN is one small form of engagement I can afford and I’m hoping at least one bart official sees it and realize what a shit job he’s doing or one government official sees it and realizes what a shit government official he is and changes something. Minuscule hope but why not. Instead we get random people who will only benefit from fixing the bart actually trying to defend it as if it’s their favorite sports team.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ninetyninenine 1y ago
Oh yeah? Why do the train operators get paid a quarter of a million dollars? How about massive misuse of funds ALONG with underfunding.

nradov 1y ago

Under funded relative to what? What would the optimal amount of funding be? Are there ways that BART could cut costs to free up budget for IT upgrades? I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that for regular citizens who don't have time to attend BART BoD and committee meetings it's almost impossible to tell whether existing money is being wisely spent. So people get the impression that taxes are going up while service quality declines and assume the money must be going into someone's pocket.

lokar 1y ago
In nearly all of the US there is an unresolved (and perhaps unresolvable) debate about to what extent public transit should get a subsidy vs pay for itself. The dominant position (even in CA) has been no or little subsidy.
- aafanah 1y ago
  The bigger issue is not just the upgrade but how brittle the system is. Modern practices like rolling releases or safe fallback modes are standard elsewhere. Critical infrastructure should not be this fragile.
  - lokar 1y ago
    I would assume the IT side is just as underfunded as the rest of the system, probably more (they will prioritize safety and rolling stock)
- flerchin 1y ago
  In no way does BART pay for itself. 22% of their operating costs are covered by fares. Public transit is an amenity paid for by taxes. Private transport also has its own subsidy, but it's not even close. https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/BART_FY24%20PAFR_final.pdf https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/BART_FY24%2...
  - roboror 1y ago
    But if single-occupancy vehicles don't cover the costs of the infrastructure they use, the ridership moving from public to private may incur even higher costs.
  - bell-cot 1y ago
    > Private transport also has its own subsidy, but it's not even close. So - what % of Cali's road construction & maintenance is paid for by gas taxes?
    - flerchin 1y ago
      That's difficult to untangle due to multiple agencies. Local, State, and Federal. However, the answer is the overwhelming majority of road construction and maintenance is paid for by gas taxes, car registration, and tolls.
      - wbl 1y ago
        The highway fund gets a massive amount of money from the general budget every year federally.
    - ggreer 1y ago
      If I'm reading this report correctly[1], California's car registration fees and gas taxes cover more than the cost of roads. Caltrans estimates $20.2 billion in revenue from fuel taxes and vehicle registration fees, while their budget is $18.7 billion. It also looks like public transportation is mostly paid for with sales taxes, federal loans/grants, and $1 billion of taxes on diesel fuel. 1. See chart A on page 24, and chart F on page 28: https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/budgets/documents/financial-package-summary-202526-signedadaa11y.pdf https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/budgets/docume...
      - bkettle 1y ago
        Note that Caltrans only maintains state roads; looks like from that document that they distribute some money to localities but as far as I can tell we can't see what fraction of local road maintenance that covers. Of course localities also have parking fees, traffic tickets, etc that can help cover road maintenance.
kelnos 1y ago
And this is the problem. If you "don't have time" to be civically engaged, then you're woefully uninformed, and you shouldn't complain about how your tax dollars are allocated, because you simply have no idea what you're complaining or arguing about.
- ninetyninenine 1y ago
  No it’s not. Bart is just really bad, and don’t blame lack of civil engagement. We don’t have time for this shit. Plenty of countries have good public infrastructure without the need for everyone to be engaged. It’s like saying crime is a problem in this world because of your lack of engagement in stopping crime. Bitching on HN is one small form of engagement I can afford and I’m hoping at least one bart official sees it and realize what a shit job he’s doing or one government official sees it and realizes what a shit government official he is and changes something. Minuscule hope but why not. Instead we get random people who will only benefit from fixing the bart actually trying to defend it as if it’s their favorite sports team.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ninetyninenine 1y ago

Oh yeah? Why do the train operators get paid a quarter of a million dollars? How about massive misuse of funds ALONG with underfunding.