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>unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way. this is what 99% of people spend 99% of their time on. If you give most people

>unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way. this is what 99% of people spend 99% of their time on. If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet. This is why China makes the claim that it is actually more democratic[1]. This is not merely propaganda. They are making the case that delivering material goods to people rather than exhausting yourself in some idiocracy-like circus of abstract rights is what should be the point of government. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole-process_people%27s_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole-process_people%27s_democ...

wao0uuno 1y ago
"f you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet." Why do we need to choose? Countries that have both exist.
corimaith 1y ago
>If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet. Well, umm, far more people (rich, middle, poor) are emmigrating out of China with preference for Western Liberal Democracies than Westeners immigrating in. The thing is, in terms of job opportunities, the USA still far surpasses China for same amount of individual effort. And if I want to just live comfortably, Japan, Australia, Korea are all valid options. Like even the abysmally poor birthrate dosen't reflect on China with regards to the long viability of what you describe.
- margalabargala 1y ago
  Plenty of people are emigrating from China to Singapore, which is not particularly less authoritarian.
  - corimaith 1y ago
    Singapore is much less authoritarian than China. The PAP plays dirty in a legal way, but they very much obey rule of law as opposed to explicit Rule By Law in the CCP. They also don't effectively declare themselves God as the ultimate authority and moral arbiters of the nation. Like, having mandatory bomb checks in your metro systems is already on the excessive and comical side of authoritarianism here. Most countries, even poorer ones don't do that.
    - throwaway2037 1y ago
      > Singapore is much less authoritarian than China. The PAP plays dirty in a legal way I think the easiest way to explain the Singaporean democracy to someone from a North American/European mindset: In Singapore, the opposition in parliament is freely elected, but the ruling party is virtually guaranteed to be PAP ("People's Action Party"... I just love how that rolls off the tongue, and the logo has 1970s Batman vibes). > having mandatory bomb checks in your metro systems is already on the excessive and comical side of authoritarianism here Are you speaking about mainland China here? I have experienced it many times in different cities. I wonder if the Chinese Dark Web has memes about the people that they employ. I have hardly seen lower motivation people at their jobs. They move like zombies and are hardly reactive even when you bag causes a "beep" from one of their machines. Do Chinese people think this actually helps? Do they feel safer? I would love to know.
refurb 1y ago
> This is why China makes the claim that it is actually more democratic[1]. This is not merely propaganda. That absolutely is propaganda. The very fact that you can't have any political party of the CCP makes it undemocratic. However hard China tries to change the definition of "democracy", won't change that fact.
- _tik_ 1y ago
  "The very fact that you can't have any political party of the CCP makes it undemocratic." This claim is not accurate. I'm currently reading The Search for Modern China, and I was surprised to learn that there are, in fact, eight officially recognized political parties in China — all operating under the leadership of the CCP. One of them is even called the 'Taiwan Democratic Self-Government League.'
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
  > That absolutely is propaganda. Of course it is, and so is the opposite claim. But that wasn't what the parent post said. The word "merely" does work in that sentence - i.e. "This is not propaganda" has a different meaning to "This is not merely propaganda" "merely" here makes the claim that it is not only propaganda, it is not just propaganda. It has substance beyond being propaganda. It is that and more.
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    This is true for every propaganda, otherwise it wouldn't work.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
      Nope. These days, most of it is "flood the zone with crap" stuff (1) that's wrong on even a quick inspection, not to mention contradictory to the rest of the crap. It's almost refreshing to see a good old-fashioned well-constructed propaganda edifice, and not a big pile of crap, one that that aims to get people to believe in something rather than nothing at all. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/on-fake-hannah-arendt-quotations-2024-08-04 https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/on-fake-hannah-arendt-quotat... https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8220792-the-point-of-modern-propaganda-isn-t-only-to-misinform-or https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8220792-the-point-of-modern...
theonething 1y ago
> This is why China makes the claim that it is actually more democratic[1]. This is not merely propaganda. It's wild to me that you believe this. I've spent a few years in China and have made close Chinese friends. One constant I see is Chinese will not admit publicly, but they'll whisper to you in quiet corners that that know their government is authoritarian and the West is more free.

wao0uuno 1y ago

"f you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet." Why do we need to choose? Countries that have both exist.

corimaith 1y ago

>If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet. Well, umm, far more people (rich, middle, poor) are emmigrating out of China with preference for Western Liberal Democracies than Westeners immigrating in. The thing is, in terms of job opportunities, the USA still far surpasses China for same amount of individual effort. And if I want to just live comfortably, Japan, Australia, Korea are all valid options. Like even the abysmally poor birthrate dosen't reflect on China with regards to the long viability of what you describe.

margalabargala 1y ago
Plenty of people are emigrating from China to Singapore, which is not particularly less authoritarian.
- corimaith 1y ago
  Singapore is much less authoritarian than China. The PAP plays dirty in a legal way, but they very much obey rule of law as opposed to explicit Rule By Law in the CCP. They also don't effectively declare themselves God as the ultimate authority and moral arbiters of the nation. Like, having mandatory bomb checks in your metro systems is already on the excessive and comical side of authoritarianism here. Most countries, even poorer ones don't do that.
  - throwaway2037 1y ago
    > Singapore is much less authoritarian than China. The PAP plays dirty in a legal way I think the easiest way to explain the Singaporean democracy to someone from a North American/European mindset: In Singapore, the opposition in parliament is freely elected, but the ruling party is virtually guaranteed to be PAP ("People's Action Party"... I just love how that rolls off the tongue, and the logo has 1970s Batman vibes). > having mandatory bomb checks in your metro systems is already on the excessive and comical side of authoritarianism here Are you speaking about mainland China here? I have experienced it many times in different cities. I wonder if the Chinese Dark Web has memes about the people that they employ. I have hardly seen lower motivation people at their jobs. They move like zombies and are hardly reactive even when you bag causes a "beep" from one of their machines. Do Chinese people think this actually helps? Do they feel safer? I would love to know.

refurb 1y ago

> This is why China makes the claim that it is actually more democratic[1]. This is not merely propaganda. That absolutely is propaganda. The very fact that you can't have any political party of the CCP makes it undemocratic. However hard China tries to change the definition of "democracy", won't change that fact.

_tik_ 1y ago
"The very fact that you can't have any political party of the CCP makes it undemocratic." This claim is not accurate. I'm currently reading The Search for Modern China, and I was surprised to learn that there are, in fact, eight officially recognized political parties in China — all operating under the leadership of the CCP. One of them is even called the 'Taiwan Democratic Self-Government League.'
SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
> That absolutely is propaganda. Of course it is, and so is the opposite claim. But that wasn't what the parent post said. The word "merely" does work in that sentence - i.e. "This is not propaganda" has a different meaning to "This is not merely propaganda" "merely" here makes the claim that it is not only propaganda, it is not just propaganda. It has substance beyond being propaganda. It is that and more.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  This is true for every propaganda, otherwise it wouldn't work.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    Nope. These days, most of it is "flood the zone with crap" stuff (1) that's wrong on even a quick inspection, not to mention contradictory to the rest of the crap. It's almost refreshing to see a good old-fashioned well-constructed propaganda edifice, and not a big pile of crap, one that that aims to get people to believe in something rather than nothing at all. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/on-fake-hannah-arendt-quotations-2024-08-04 https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/on-fake-hannah-arendt-quotat... https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8220792-the-point-of-modern-propaganda-isn-t-only-to-misinform-or https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8220792-the-point-of-modern...

theonething 1y ago

> This is why China makes the claim that it is actually more democratic[1]. This is not merely propaganda. It's wild to me that you believe this. I've spent a few years in China and have made close Chinese friends. One constant I see is Chinese will not admit publicly, but they'll whisper to you in quiet corners that that know their government is authoritarian and the West is more free.