4 ms·

Meanwhile everyone else has moved to plastic pipes which will last longer, are cheaper, and leach no metals (microplastics don't seem to come from water lines f

Meanwhile everyone else has moved to plastic pipes which will last longer, are cheaper, and leach no metals (microplastics don't seem to come from water lines frome what I can tell, but I'm looking for confirmation)

toomuchtodo 1y ago
Copper lasts ~20 years longer than plastic, making copper a superior choice for the longevity needed for the use case. Also, copper has anti microbial properties and rarely leaches in material quantities unless the water has a low pH.
- bluGill 1y ago
  https://www.teppfa.eu/media/industry-studies/meta-study-100-years-of-lifetime-of-plastic-pipes/ https://www.teppfa.eu/media/industry-studies/meta-study-100-... plastic is often rated at less but that is because they don't bother to test any longer, when properly installed and used plastic should last longer than copper.
- SlightlyLeftPad 1y ago
  But has the tradeoff of using lead solder at every joint
  - frosted-flakes 1y ago
    Lead solder hasn't been used in the US since 1986, when it was banned by the Safe Drinking Water Act.
    - Scoundreller 1y ago
      “Lead free” isn’t zero lead. > In 1986, Congress amended the Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA), prohibiting the use of lead in pipes, and solder and flux on products used in public water systems that provide water for human consumption. Lead-free was defined as solder and flux with no more than 0.2% lead and pipes with no more than 8%. > In 2011, Congress passed the RLDWA, which revised the definition of lead free and took effect in 2013. Lead free was now defined as the lead content of the wetted surfaces of plumbing products as a weighted average of no greater than 0.25% for products that contact water intended for consumption, and 0.2% for solder and flux. https://www.workingpressuremag.com/epa-final-lead-free-ruling/ https://www.workingpressuremag.com/epa-final-lead-free-rulin... A lot of municipal water systems have done more recent (but by no means required) improvements to the water itself to “coat” the lead in supply lines. Beyond just pH control, like orthophosphate. Most just in the last decade or so. For Chicago, it’s an active project > Polyphosphate is being removed because recent studies have shown that it may negatively impact lead corrosion control. > Polyphosphate was initially added with the orthophosphate to mask discoloration of the water from metals such as iron or manganese. https://villageofalsip.org/Chicago%20Department%20of%20Water%20Management%20Treatment%20Changes%20FAQ.pdf https://villageofalsip.org/Chicago%20Department%20of%20Water...
      - akoboldfrying 1y ago
        > Lead-free was defined as ... pipes with no more than 8%. This thread has had a lot of twists and turns, but I wasn't expecting this one. Yikes.
        Scoundreller 1y ago
        A lot of brass fittings and fixtures with lead in them. Makes it easier to machine. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of no-name Amazon and aliexpress plumbing fixtures still have a lot of lead in them. Keeps your cutting tool/machining costs down.
        bluGill 1y ago
        Even big box stores that are careful sell a lot of high lead plumbing parts - they are just marked not for potable water and sold for use with gas pipes.
        Scoundreller 1y ago
        Can still get full lead solder for similar reasons if you’re a cranky old plumber. Probably can’t get away with using it in new builds but anything else, I’m sure it got used regularly well after the 1986 “ban” and still today.
- cyberax 1y ago
  Copper is also susceptible to pinhole corrosion if iron gets into the pipes. There are no similarly catastrophic failure scenarios for HDPE. HDPE also doesn't need plasticizers, so it should be safer than PVC.
coryrc 1y ago
Contaminants can migrate from soil through plastic, which is a problem in the rust belt, but can be dealt with an aluminum barrier layer. What is harder to avoid is endocrine-disrupting plasticizers, because of regulatory capture. https://www.pe100plus.com/PE-Pipes/Technical-guidance/model/Design/water-pipe/Can-contaminants-in-the-soil-permeate-through-PE-pipe-i251.html https://www.pe100plus.com/PE-Pipes/Technical-guidance/model/...

toomuchtodo 1y ago

Copper lasts ~20 years longer than plastic, making copper a superior choice for the longevity needed for the use case. Also, copper has anti microbial properties and rarely leaches in material quantities unless the water has a low pH.

bluGill 1y ago
https://www.teppfa.eu/media/industry-studies/meta-study-100-years-of-lifetime-of-plastic-pipes/ https://www.teppfa.eu/media/industry-studies/meta-study-100-... plastic is often rated at less but that is because they don't bother to test any longer, when properly installed and used plastic should last longer than copper.
SlightlyLeftPad 1y ago
But has the tradeoff of using lead solder at every joint
- frosted-flakes 1y ago
  Lead solder hasn't been used in the US since 1986, when it was banned by the Safe Drinking Water Act.
  - Scoundreller 1y ago
    “Lead free” isn’t zero lead. > In 1986, Congress amended the Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA), prohibiting the use of lead in pipes, and solder and flux on products used in public water systems that provide water for human consumption. Lead-free was defined as solder and flux with no more than 0.2% lead and pipes with no more than 8%. > In 2011, Congress passed the RLDWA, which revised the definition of lead free and took effect in 2013. Lead free was now defined as the lead content of the wetted surfaces of plumbing products as a weighted average of no greater than 0.25% for products that contact water intended for consumption, and 0.2% for solder and flux. https://www.workingpressuremag.com/epa-final-lead-free-ruling/ https://www.workingpressuremag.com/epa-final-lead-free-rulin... A lot of municipal water systems have done more recent (but by no means required) improvements to the water itself to “coat” the lead in supply lines. Beyond just pH control, like orthophosphate. Most just in the last decade or so. For Chicago, it’s an active project > Polyphosphate is being removed because recent studies have shown that it may negatively impact lead corrosion control. > Polyphosphate was initially added with the orthophosphate to mask discoloration of the water from metals such as iron or manganese. https://villageofalsip.org/Chicago%20Department%20of%20Water%20Management%20Treatment%20Changes%20FAQ.pdf https://villageofalsip.org/Chicago%20Department%20of%20Water...
    - akoboldfrying 1y ago
      > Lead-free was defined as ... pipes with no more than 8%. This thread has had a lot of twists and turns, but I wasn't expecting this one. Yikes.
      - Scoundreller 1y ago
        A lot of brass fittings and fixtures with lead in them. Makes it easier to machine. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of no-name Amazon and aliexpress plumbing fixtures still have a lot of lead in them. Keeps your cutting tool/machining costs down.
        bluGill 1y ago
        Even big box stores that are careful sell a lot of high lead plumbing parts - they are just marked not for potable water and sold for use with gas pipes.
        Scoundreller 1y ago
        Can still get full lead solder for similar reasons if you’re a cranky old plumber. Probably can’t get away with using it in new builds but anything else, I’m sure it got used regularly well after the 1986 “ban” and still today.
cyberax 1y ago
Copper is also susceptible to pinhole corrosion if iron gets into the pipes. There are no similarly catastrophic failure scenarios for HDPE. HDPE also doesn't need plasticizers, so it should be safer than PVC.

coryrc 1y ago

Contaminants can migrate from soil through plastic, which is a problem in the rust belt, but can be dealt with an aluminum barrier layer. What is harder to avoid is endocrine-disrupting plasticizers, because of regulatory capture. https://www.pe100plus.com/PE-Pipes/Technical-guidance/model/Design/water-pipe/Can-contaminants-in-the-soil-permeate-through-PE-pipe-i251.html https://www.pe100plus.com/PE-Pipes/Technical-guidance/model/...