9 ms·

It's interesting how people's positions can be so different. As a European who has lived in two (european) countries with good and affordable transport, I've al

by outime 1y ago

It's interesting how people's positions can be so different. As a European who has lived in two (european) countries with good and affordable transport, I've always been a happy public transport user... until a couple of years ago, that is. Much of the transport is now filled with unpleasant people, dirt, delays, etc which paired with the insane prices of housing in the "walkable" parts of cities, has made me 100% invested in the myth of motorized freedom.

mattigames 1y ago
And who do you think is most interested in such decay of public transportation?
- outime 1y ago
  I'd say the decline is happening (in my experience) in most public services, not just transport. But anyway, I'm purposely staying away from discussing politics here since it's pointless, so I'll just share my experience as a public transport end-user, and the rest can fill in the gaps with their perspectives.
- ang_cire 1y ago
  No one is "interested" in making public transit worse, the issue is that people in power are not users of it and so are not invested in it, and civic and national pride is generally dead in the West, being replaced with vapid nationalism, so there's no drive (no pun intended) to invest in public works projects.
  - dkiebd 1y ago
    The way I understand your comment, it implies that a) users of public transportation should be invested in it, whilst it’s more likely that they use it because they have no alternative, and that b) civic and national pride results in higher demand for public transportation. I don’t think those are universal truths.
    - ang_cire 1y ago
      You don't think that people who use services care more about the service than non-users? Whether they're forced into using it or not, the fact they do absolutely makes them more invested in it being good. Civic and national pride makes citizens (which includes politicians and the wealthy) more likely to care about the actual state of their country. That's what national pride means, as opposed to nationalism, where they are proud without reason. Is public transit guaranteed to be one of those reasons they feel pride or shame? Not at all, but support for it is certainly more likely to come from that than a bunch of nationalists who don't actually feel any shame at failings of the country, of which public transit is currently.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      When users of transit are few there is not enough people to care. often the only users are those least likely to be usefuly involved. so you can't get a useful advocate. Even when transit gets support it is from people wanting to feel good about helping the poor - but would never use it themselves and so they want something with no care for quality. They often make alliences with those whose intersts are not for good transit and don't care that the compromise is bad for transit.
  - feurio 1y ago
    The London Mayor some years ago, Ken Livingstone, was a huge proponent of public trasport and used it extensively. The current Mayor, whilst still a proponent, likely does not use it. A quick glance at the social media that he recieves will tell you why - it would not be safe. He needs to travel with close protection officers. The reason? He is Muslim, and Britain has become a very racist country indeed. Well, maybe always was, but the likes of Farage and Musk have so emboldened them that there is no longer a stigma.
    - blargthorwars 1y ago
      Nobody is worrying about the native English. If they were, they wouldn't have immigrated there.
    - dkiebd 1y ago
      [dead]
      - feurio 1y ago
        As the Mayor was born in London I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting.
- socalgal2 1y ago
  Make it like Japan, not public, private. Then, like Japan, provide positive feedback loops so it’s in each of the 100+ train companies in Japan’s best interest to provide good service. They do this by letting the private train companies have complementary interests like shopping centers, office rental, apartments, etc such that the more people ride their trains the more business they get to their other interests. Conversely, “public” transportation always needs flawless perfect politicians to continue to fund it
wouldbecouldbe 1y ago
I have the same experience, but I wonder if I just got older and more spoiled or if non-car traffic really got worse
- AllegedAlec 1y ago
  It has gotten significantly worse to the point where I stopped taking it. Prices on public transport are now also so high I'm better off taking the car on most trips. Also it it me or are "just have walkable/bikeable cities people" more obnoxious than vegan speed cyclists
dietr1ch 1y ago
My motorized freedom dreams got stuck in increasingly worse traffic. Nowadays I dream of a "bikeable" commute and grocery shopping and whatever works best between public transport and driving on the weekends.
- nradov 1y ago
  My area is fairly "bikeable" but I seldom ride my bike for errands because I can't be sure that it will still be there when I get out of the store. The local authorities do almost nothing to prevent bike theft. Sure, cars can also be stolen. But modern cars are now fairly theft resistant and police at least take it seriously as a crime.
  - tim333 1y ago
    I ebike and the combination of an old rusty bike plus a large lock seems to stop thieves, even though I leave it on the street 247. I take the battery in though. And have a funky diy paint job. Also even if it was stolen it cost less than any of a years tax on the car, one service on the car, one replacement shock on the car etc.
  - dietr1ch 1y ago
    My way of shopping with my bike is either taking my obviously pricey bike, which I can just walk into the supermarket without anyone thinking it could be left outside, or just take my old 25kg bike that's kind of not worth stealing and lock it somewhat close to the entrance just in case.
nradov 1y ago
European countries only have good and affordable transport in the first and second tier cities. I usually spend a few weeks per year in Europe, often in smaller cities or rural areas, and the only public transport you'll find is some occasional bus service at inconvenient times. In those places everyone drives everywhere. Or they just sit around and home and don't go anywhere.
- outime 1y ago
  Yeah, I agree. I've just happened to live in two capitals, so I've had access to top-tier public transport. But even in the capitals, a simple 10-minute drive can turn into a 50-minute journey on public transport (this is a literal common example of mine, not an exaggeration!). So even then, you have to consider how much your time is worth.
  - antonymoose 1y ago
    I lived in a lower-tier American city (Charleston, SC) for 15 years, and this was my experience with public transportation. I had commute options of a 7 mile drive @ 30 minutes due to congestion, a 7 mile bike ride @ 35 minutes no congestion thanks to bike lanes, or approximately 2 hours bus ride on an unreliable system with no good drop off points and no guarantees in a timely arrival or space for a bicycle to complete the 2 mile walk to my office. These numbers are also one way, not round trip. In other words, I could not use the service in any honest sense. Perhaps a nice future is a hybrid model of public transportation plus personal transport via bicycles and scooters, especially with battery powered options becoming so robust.
- mojuba 1y ago
  And then there are third-tier historical medieval towns that are 100% walkable and you again don't need a car. My ideal city of the future is a small walkable town with everything within a 15-20 minute walk, possibly a part of a conglomerate of towns that run trains or buses between them. I currently live in one such historical town in Southern Europe that's protected by Unesco. The streets are so narrow that not only there's no public transport, all non-resident and non-delivery traffic is prohibited and there's no Uber even. And yet you have everything you need for life and work within a 15-20 minute walk max. More for remote work, obviously. An ideal city of the future doesn't need to be medieval but maybe we should go back to a city planning concept that is made for humans and not cars. And you know, narrow pedestrian streets are totally fine, they are cute!
mattlondon 1y ago
Even in large cities like London there are huge areas where public transport is a joke. Yes it's fine in the very tourist center, but get out further from the center where normal people with families actually live and what is a 5-8 minute drive to a large grocery store becomes a mammoth 50-60 minute journey each way. I personally don't want to spend 15% of my waking day going to and from the shops and paying huge prices for public transport (and also struggle back carrying heavy bags) when I can pay pennies in electricity to drive there and back in a small fraction of the time. I can leave, do my shop, drive back (with heavy bags being carried by the car not my fingers!) and unpack and be sat down again and half way through a TV episode before I'd even have got there by public transport. And this is London where we have "good" public transport.
- mitthrowaway2 1y ago
  It sounds like your public transport isn't actually good.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    No place in the world has good public transit then. Which is realistic I guess: fix your own area instead of looking down on others who are worse.
    - mitthrowaway2 1y ago
      I've been to cities large and small in Japan that had better transit than what you describe in London. That's probably why they have so much ridership.
      - bluGill 1y ago
        I did not describe London... mode share even in tokyo is only 51% - they have a lot of work they can do. That 51% is likely just going to work, cities rarely collect data for other trips but those matter and are places to work on.
nialv7 1y ago
I don't get it. If you've been enjoying public transportation for so long, then why is your reaction to it getting worse not: OK, we need to fix it so it's as good as it was. Instead you are just saying: OK, I have the resources to fix the problem for myself, so I don't give a F.
- zmnd 1y ago
  How do you fix the mentioned problem of "filled with unpleasant people" with money?
  - UtopiaPunk 1y ago
    Do you think the unpleasantness of people has gotten worse over time? If so, what caused that to happen?
    - zmnd 1y ago
      Not my quote, just pointing out that not everything can be solved with money. But yes, I think it got worse over time.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    Usually when people get older and start complaining about new "unpleasant people" the issue isn't that new unpleasant people exist. Rather, its that the older person has not adapted and is stuck. They become "get off my lawn" types
    - zmnd 1y ago
      It’s easy to dismiss a problem by just saying that someone is just an “older person” who “didn’t adapt”.
      - const_cast 1y ago
        It is, but it's also just something I see time and time and time again. Every generation complains about how the world is going to shit and the yougins ain't got no respect and whatever particular segment of brown people at that time don't belong in their country. I would have some sympathy if this wasn't, like, the millionth time this has happened.
dfxm12 1y ago
Look one layer deeper and likely the issues are classist. Of course you didn't mention where you were, but, in the places I've lived, it goes down like this: the people who are wealthy enough to not need to use use public transit have more sway in terms of voting/persuading politicians, and push for policies that directly benefit them, even if it's to the detriment of the city overall. Thus: more resources go towards those places with insane house prices, leaving everyone and everything else behind. The problem isn't public transit, it's the wealthy.
- dse1982 1y ago
  Right on point.

by outime 1y ago

mattigames 1y ago

And who do you think is most interested in such decay of public transportation?

outime 1y ago
I'd say the decline is happening (in my experience) in most public services, not just transport. But anyway, I'm purposely staying away from discussing politics here since it's pointless, so I'll just share my experience as a public transport end-user, and the rest can fill in the gaps with their perspectives.
ang_cire 1y ago
No one is "interested" in making public transit worse, the issue is that people in power are not users of it and so are not invested in it, and civic and national pride is generally dead in the West, being replaced with vapid nationalism, so there's no drive (no pun intended) to invest in public works projects.
- dkiebd 1y ago
  The way I understand your comment, it implies that a) users of public transportation should be invested in it, whilst it’s more likely that they use it because they have no alternative, and that b) civic and national pride results in higher demand for public transportation. I don’t think those are universal truths.
  - ang_cire 1y ago
    You don't think that people who use services care more about the service than non-users? Whether they're forced into using it or not, the fact they do absolutely makes them more invested in it being good. Civic and national pride makes citizens (which includes politicians and the wealthy) more likely to care about the actual state of their country. That's what national pride means, as opposed to nationalism, where they are proud without reason. Is public transit guaranteed to be one of those reasons they feel pride or shame? Not at all, but support for it is certainly more likely to come from that than a bunch of nationalists who don't actually feel any shame at failings of the country, of which public transit is currently.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    When users of transit are few there is not enough people to care. often the only users are those least likely to be usefuly involved. so you can't get a useful advocate. Even when transit gets support it is from people wanting to feel good about helping the poor - but would never use it themselves and so they want something with no care for quality. They often make alliences with those whose intersts are not for good transit and don't care that the compromise is bad for transit.
- feurio 1y ago
  The London Mayor some years ago, Ken Livingstone, was a huge proponent of public trasport and used it extensively. The current Mayor, whilst still a proponent, likely does not use it. A quick glance at the social media that he recieves will tell you why - it would not be safe. He needs to travel with close protection officers. The reason? He is Muslim, and Britain has become a very racist country indeed. Well, maybe always was, but the likes of Farage and Musk have so emboldened them that there is no longer a stigma.
  - blargthorwars 1y ago
    Nobody is worrying about the native English. If they were, they wouldn't have immigrated there.
  - dkiebd 1y ago
    [dead]
    - feurio 1y ago
      As the Mayor was born in London I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting.
socalgal2 1y ago
Make it like Japan, not public, private. Then, like Japan, provide positive feedback loops so it’s in each of the 100+ train companies in Japan’s best interest to provide good service. They do this by letting the private train companies have complementary interests like shopping centers, office rental, apartments, etc such that the more people ride their trains the more business they get to their other interests. Conversely, “public” transportation always needs flawless perfect politicians to continue to fund it

wouldbecouldbe 1y ago

I have the same experience, but I wonder if I just got older and more spoiled or if non-car traffic really got worse

AllegedAlec 1y ago
It has gotten significantly worse to the point where I stopped taking it. Prices on public transport are now also so high I'm better off taking the car on most trips. Also it it me or are "just have walkable/bikeable cities people" more obnoxious than vegan speed cyclists

dietr1ch 1y ago

My motorized freedom dreams got stuck in increasingly worse traffic. Nowadays I dream of a "bikeable" commute and grocery shopping and whatever works best between public transport and driving on the weekends.

nradov 1y ago
My area is fairly "bikeable" but I seldom ride my bike for errands because I can't be sure that it will still be there when I get out of the store. The local authorities do almost nothing to prevent bike theft. Sure, cars can also be stolen. But modern cars are now fairly theft resistant and police at least take it seriously as a crime.
- tim333 1y ago
  I ebike and the combination of an old rusty bike plus a large lock seems to stop thieves, even though I leave it on the street 247. I take the battery in though. And have a funky diy paint job. Also even if it was stolen it cost less than any of a years tax on the car, one service on the car, one replacement shock on the car etc.
- dietr1ch 1y ago
  My way of shopping with my bike is either taking my obviously pricey bike, which I can just walk into the supermarket without anyone thinking it could be left outside, or just take my old 25kg bike that's kind of not worth stealing and lock it somewhat close to the entrance just in case.

nradov 1y ago

European countries only have good and affordable transport in the first and second tier cities. I usually spend a few weeks per year in Europe, often in smaller cities or rural areas, and the only public transport you'll find is some occasional bus service at inconvenient times. In those places everyone drives everywhere. Or they just sit around and home and don't go anywhere.

outime 1y ago
Yeah, I agree. I've just happened to live in two capitals, so I've had access to top-tier public transport. But even in the capitals, a simple 10-minute drive can turn into a 50-minute journey on public transport (this is a literal common example of mine, not an exaggeration!). So even then, you have to consider how much your time is worth.
- antonymoose 1y ago
  I lived in a lower-tier American city (Charleston, SC) for 15 years, and this was my experience with public transportation. I had commute options of a 7 mile drive @ 30 minutes due to congestion, a 7 mile bike ride @ 35 minutes no congestion thanks to bike lanes, or approximately 2 hours bus ride on an unreliable system with no good drop off points and no guarantees in a timely arrival or space for a bicycle to complete the 2 mile walk to my office. These numbers are also one way, not round trip. In other words, I could not use the service in any honest sense. Perhaps a nice future is a hybrid model of public transportation plus personal transport via bicycles and scooters, especially with battery powered options becoming so robust.
mojuba 1y ago
And then there are third-tier historical medieval towns that are 100% walkable and you again don't need a car. My ideal city of the future is a small walkable town with everything within a 15-20 minute walk, possibly a part of a conglomerate of towns that run trains or buses between them. I currently live in one such historical town in Southern Europe that's protected by Unesco. The streets are so narrow that not only there's no public transport, all non-resident and non-delivery traffic is prohibited and there's no Uber even. And yet you have everything you need for life and work within a 15-20 minute walk max. More for remote work, obviously. An ideal city of the future doesn't need to be medieval but maybe we should go back to a city planning concept that is made for humans and not cars. And you know, narrow pedestrian streets are totally fine, they are cute!

mattlondon 1y ago

Even in large cities like London there are huge areas where public transport is a joke. Yes it's fine in the very tourist center, but get out further from the center where normal people with families actually live and what is a 5-8 minute drive to a large grocery store becomes a mammoth 50-60 minute journey each way. I personally don't want to spend 15% of my waking day going to and from the shops and paying huge prices for public transport (and also struggle back carrying heavy bags) when I can pay pennies in electricity to drive there and back in a small fraction of the time. I can leave, do my shop, drive back (with heavy bags being carried by the car not my fingers!) and unpack and be sat down again and half way through a TV episode before I'd even have got there by public transport. And this is London where we have "good" public transport.

mitthrowaway2 1y ago
It sounds like your public transport isn't actually good.
- bluGill 1y ago
  No place in the world has good public transit then. Which is realistic I guess: fix your own area instead of looking down on others who are worse.
  - mitthrowaway2 1y ago
    I've been to cities large and small in Japan that had better transit than what you describe in London. That's probably why they have so much ridership.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      I did not describe London... mode share even in tokyo is only 51% - they have a lot of work they can do. That 51% is likely just going to work, cities rarely collect data for other trips but those matter and are places to work on.

nialv7 1y ago

I don't get it. If you've been enjoying public transportation for so long, then why is your reaction to it getting worse not: OK, we need to fix it so it's as good as it was. Instead you are just saying: OK, I have the resources to fix the problem for myself, so I don't give a F.

zmnd 1y ago
How do you fix the mentioned problem of "filled with unpleasant people" with money?
- UtopiaPunk 1y ago
  Do you think the unpleasantness of people has gotten worse over time? If so, what caused that to happen?
  - zmnd 1y ago
    Not my quote, just pointing out that not everything can be solved with money. But yes, I think it got worse over time.
- const_cast 1y ago
  Usually when people get older and start complaining about new "unpleasant people" the issue isn't that new unpleasant people exist. Rather, its that the older person has not adapted and is stuck. They become "get off my lawn" types
  - zmnd 1y ago
    It’s easy to dismiss a problem by just saying that someone is just an “older person” who “didn’t adapt”.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      It is, but it's also just something I see time and time and time again. Every generation complains about how the world is going to shit and the yougins ain't got no respect and whatever particular segment of brown people at that time don't belong in their country. I would have some sympathy if this wasn't, like, the millionth time this has happened.

dfxm12 1y ago

Look one layer deeper and likely the issues are classist. Of course you didn't mention where you were, but, in the places I've lived, it goes down like this: the people who are wealthy enough to not need to use use public transit have more sway in terms of voting/persuading politicians, and push for policies that directly benefit them, even if it's to the detriment of the city overall. Thus: more resources go towards those places with insane house prices, leaving everyone and everything else behind. The problem isn't public transit, it's the wealthy.

dse1982 1y ago
Right on point.