5 ms·

Can you make an argument as to how this is different from having to have an account with, say, your ISP?

by dataflow 1y ago

Nextgrid 1y ago
You have many ISPs to choose from. There are not many "Googles" nor "Apples" to choose from.
- jader201 1y ago
  Depending on where you live, a lot of times you don’t many to choose from. Maybe 2-3, but sometimes only one with fast enough speeds that it becomes the only option.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    So they are effectively utilities and must be regulated accordingly.
  - Retric 1y ago
    Where? Cellphone providers + Starlink mean there’s more than 3 options in basically every US home.
    - mothballed 1y ago
      Even in places without those, there are a ton of little hamlets in BFE around me that have one guy that gets fiber from wherever is cheapest, then runs a point-to-point directional antenna relay system to a home-brew ISP.
  - account42 1y ago
    We're talking about participating in society not Netflix. There are a lot more options for that, including mobile and even good old dial up.
- tqwhite 1y ago
  I have exactly one to choose from. Two thirds of americans households have exactly two, exactly the same number as the count of googles and apples.
  - marcosdumay 1y ago
    Than your region has a problem that your government should work to fix. Just like the one with Google/Apple. That's not a universal problem though, so random people on the internet won't relate.
  - rahimnathwani 1y ago
    Two thirds of Americans could connect to the internet via: - Starlink - AT&T wireless - T-Mobile wireless - Verizon wireless The choices of fixed ISPs is often more limited (in my area, the physical options are AT&T copper, Xfinity cable, Monkeybrains wireless).
- christina97 1y ago
  My apartment, smack bang in the middle of Manhattan, has a single coax cable opened by Spectrum, and is the only option for me to get reliable internet connection. I have no choice but to (1) sign whatever their ToS are, (2) pay whatever they want to charge, and (3) have them do what they want with my metadata. I’ve decided it’s not the hill I want to die on, but no, I don’t have many ISPs to choose from.
  - dzikimarian 1y ago
    You have at very least: * Mobile connection, a few carriers * Starlink/Eutelsat It's not perfect, but nowhere near Google/Apple duopoly. Also this is very local US issue, solvable on city level regulation, while smartphones are everywhere.
    - aetherson 1y ago
      You also have the option to move. I mean, that's not ideal, obviously you don't want to have people up and change addresses to deal with a problem with a single company, but if you end up on both Google and Apple's shitlists, there's nowhere you can go to where Schmapple is a third option.
    - cactacea 1y ago
      Starlink in an apartment in the middle of Manhattan? Suggesting Eutelsat is just funny frankly.
      - dzikimarian 1y ago
        Eutelsat has pretty reasonable unlimited data package at $75/MO. Might only be available in Europe & Africa though.
        ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
        >Might only be available in Europe & Africa though. Yep. We just need to move Manhattan there. Problem solved. It's crazy how some people think there's no solution when the solution is "clear as an unmuddied lake...As clear as an azure sky of deepest summer."[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(film)
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
rickdeckard 1y ago
Your ISP is an utility, it doesn't hold your de-facto identity. Google and Apple increasingly become the entity required to identify yourself, either directly ("login with Google/Apple to participate") or indirectly ("use our App on iOS/Android to confirm your identity and participate")
anymouse123456 1y ago
This question is a non sequitur. No one is arguing for using ISP-hosted accounts as an alternative. The core problem isn't even rooted in identity per se, it's about platform owners actively working to limit access to essential information from platforms they cannot profit from. Even granting the most cherubic motives, this ongoing behavior is atrocious on it's face and should be prevented by any means, including competition, rule making and legislation.
hansvm 1y ago
A few points: 1. It's not necessarily different. Your ISP has monopolistic power over you, and it should be regulated more aggressively. 2. A non-mobile ISP is currently much less important than an Apple/Google account for interacting with modern society, and less important than it was even a decade ago. If all 1.5 of my available home ISPs turned evil I could manage just fine without them. 3. Given the relative public perceptions this feels weird to say, but Comcast and their ilk are much less problematic than the Apple/Google monopolies. You can largely just pay for internet (plus an extra 10-40% from scammy business practices) and do whatever you want to do, with the analytics they're selling about you being less invasive than those which Apple/Google use.
MetaWhirledPeas 1y ago
If ISPs pose a similar problem, that still doesn't minimize the Apple/Google problem.

Can you make an argument as to how this is different from having to have an account with, say, your ISP?

Nextgrid 1y ago

You have many ISPs to choose from. There are not many "Googles" nor "Apples" to choose from.

jader201 1y ago
Depending on where you live, a lot of times you don’t many to choose from. Maybe 2-3, but sometimes only one with fast enough speeds that it becomes the only option.
- fsflover 1y ago
  So they are effectively utilities and must be regulated accordingly.
- Retric 1y ago
  Where? Cellphone providers + Starlink mean there’s more than 3 options in basically every US home.
  - mothballed 1y ago
    Even in places without those, there are a ton of little hamlets in BFE around me that have one guy that gets fiber from wherever is cheapest, then runs a point-to-point directional antenna relay system to a home-brew ISP.
- account42 1y ago
  We're talking about participating in society not Netflix. There are a lot more options for that, including mobile and even good old dial up.
tqwhite 1y ago
I have exactly one to choose from. Two thirds of americans households have exactly two, exactly the same number as the count of googles and apples.
- marcosdumay 1y ago
  Than your region has a problem that your government should work to fix. Just like the one with Google/Apple. That's not a universal problem though, so random people on the internet won't relate.
- rahimnathwani 1y ago
  Two thirds of Americans could connect to the internet via: - Starlink - AT&T wireless - T-Mobile wireless - Verizon wireless The choices of fixed ISPs is often more limited (in my area, the physical options are AT&T copper, Xfinity cable, Monkeybrains wireless).
christina97 1y ago
My apartment, smack bang in the middle of Manhattan, has a single coax cable opened by Spectrum, and is the only option for me to get reliable internet connection. I have no choice but to (1) sign whatever their ToS are, (2) pay whatever they want to charge, and (3) have them do what they want with my metadata. I’ve decided it’s not the hill I want to die on, but no, I don’t have many ISPs to choose from.
- dzikimarian 1y ago
  You have at very least: * Mobile connection, a few carriers * Starlink/Eutelsat It's not perfect, but nowhere near Google/Apple duopoly. Also this is very local US issue, solvable on city level regulation, while smartphones are everywhere.
  - aetherson 1y ago
    You also have the option to move. I mean, that's not ideal, obviously you don't want to have people up and change addresses to deal with a problem with a single company, but if you end up on both Google and Apple's shitlists, there's nowhere you can go to where Schmapple is a third option.
  - cactacea 1y ago
    Starlink in an apartment in the middle of Manhattan? Suggesting Eutelsat is just funny frankly.
    - dzikimarian 1y ago
      Eutelsat has pretty reasonable unlimited data package at $75/MO. Might only be available in Europe & Africa though.
      - ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
        >Might only be available in Europe & Africa though. Yep. We just need to move Manhattan there. Problem solved. It's crazy how some people think there's no solution when the solution is "clear as an unmuddied lake...As clear as an azure sky of deepest summer."[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(film)

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

rickdeckard 1y ago

Your ISP is an utility, it doesn't hold your de-facto identity. Google and Apple increasingly become the entity required to identify yourself, either directly ("login with Google/Apple to participate") or indirectly ("use our App on iOS/Android to confirm your identity and participate")

anymouse123456 1y ago

This question is a non sequitur. No one is arguing for using ISP-hosted accounts as an alternative. The core problem isn't even rooted in identity per se, it's about platform owners actively working to limit access to essential information from platforms they cannot profit from. Even granting the most cherubic motives, this ongoing behavior is atrocious on it's face and should be prevented by any means, including competition, rule making and legislation.

hansvm 1y ago

A few points: 1. It's not necessarily different. Your ISP has monopolistic power over you, and it should be regulated more aggressively. 2. A non-mobile ISP is currently much less important than an Apple/Google account for interacting with modern society, and less important than it was even a decade ago. If all 1.5 of my available home ISPs turned evil I could manage just fine without them. 3. Given the relative public perceptions this feels weird to say, but Comcast and their ilk are much less problematic than the Apple/Google monopolies. You can largely just pay for internet (plus an extra 10-40% from scammy business practices) and do whatever you want to do, with the analytics they're selling about you being less invasive than those which Apple/Google use.

MetaWhirledPeas 1y ago

If ISPs pose a similar problem, that still doesn't minimize the Apple/Google problem.