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I think it would be more correct to say that the concept of "the fall (or end) of the western roman empire" is insufficiently defined. If one imagined an alter
by icegreentea2 1y ago
I think it would be more correct to say that the concept of "the fall (or end) of the western roman empire" is insufficiently defined.
If one imagined an alternative US Civil War, where the war ended in stalemate, the Union and CSA coexisting for decades, before an miraculously resurgent Mexican Empire swept through and engulfed the territories of both, before allowing the original 13 states to continue to exist as a subservient, but nominally independent state that still had nominal local democratic republicanism, and the inhabitants on those states will called themselves "Americans".
When would you say "the United States of America fell" in that scenario?
Arguments about the "when did the Roman Empire fall in the west" are actually arguments about what are the most important aspects to Rome to us, here today in the modern world (particularly in the western world).
- pqtyw 1y agoThe Roman Empire in the east at the time did just fine, though. The Goths in a (very technical) way "unified" the empire after they took Italy since they got rid of the western emperor and declared that they are now vassals of the one in Constantinople. In a couple of generations Romans were on the verge of retaking the entire Mediterranean, without the issues with the climate and especially the plague they might have done just fine and we'd be talking about the "crisis of the 5th century" instead of the fall.
- icegreentea2 1y agoYeah. I wasn't so much arguing about the facts on the ground, but rather commenting on how the study of history tends to just be a mirror for our current, modern day concerns.
- nradov 1y agoI wonder what future historians will say about the fall of the Russian Empire which currently seems to be underway.
- Nevermark 1y agoI suspect if China took over Taiwan and throttled down exports of rare earth elements, high end chips, and manufacturing in general, we would be triangulating back to the point that the US began hemorrhaging credibility as a nation capable of being serious about its own and its allies well being. As the onset of a US fall. Personally, I didn't understand the Biden principle of helping Ukraine "not lose", but not helping it win. How was that ever going to produce a desirable result? And now, the US reputation for stalwart support of friends, and friends willingness to support the US, are both fading faster. Well, I can't predict the future. At least I very much hope I can't.
- FranzFerdiNaN 1y agoThe reelection of Trump would be the point that the USA started losing its credibility. No need for an external enemy, America turned out to be more than willing and capable to kill itself.