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Do we really have to read again and again the same fantasies the far right spew out continuously here in France on Hacker News? It’s so easy to factually dispro

Do we really have to read again and again the same fantasies the far right spew out continuously here in France on Hacker News? It’s so easy to factually disprove, it’s kind of boring. I will keep it short because I value my time but here some things you might want to ponder: - America integration doesn’t exist. The American strategy has always been leave people alone to keep living in their own culture. There is no actual American identity. The only things American have in common in the shared trauma of slavery and the civil war, and the founding myth which is why they remain so prevalent in the US modern discourse. Meanwhile, people will happily talk about "race" culture, half the country would be happy to slaughter the other half and culturally linked riots are a thing. - Europe has a cultural entity doesn’t exist. The UK is different to France which is different to Germany or Danemark. Most of these countries immigration come from former colonies who already understand these countries social norms. - Access to social welfare is severely limited to immigrants. Most of the system drain comes from people who were born in the country, not immigrants. Take any economic studies, you will see than immigration is a net positive in every European country. These are country where the population is aging fast. We simply need the immigrants to prop up the work force. - Integration is a false issue. Most of the problems in France for example come from second generation immigrants who actually went through the French education system. The problem is mostly economic. - The way Islam has been managed is an issue in itself. People deserve to be able to practice their cult freely and in good condition but most European countries have refused to take charge of the question. France for example left far too much space to extremist countries like Saudi Arabia. When most of your imams have been trained in the worst possible interpretations and mosques are financed by countries you shouldn’t want anything to do with, you have a major issue. There clearly is space for better solutions here. - Plenty of political parties in Europe have strong visions for the future. Some of them are linked to social justice and preserving the environment, things you obviously dislike. The fact you can’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist however.

zksijdjd 1y ago
[flagged]
- amanaplanacanal 1y ago
  > An American is (on the whole) somebody who’s genetically European and has had family here for generations. This is obviously nonsense. "White" Americans are something like 57% of the population. The US is very mixed, and always has been.
  - zksijdjd 1y ago
    > The US is very mixed, and always has been You can search US demographic data from a plethora of sources to see this is not true. It’s a recent development enabled by modern laws and policies.
  - Levitz 1y ago
    The US was 80% White 35 years ago https://www.iowadatacenter.org/datatables/UnitedStates/usstracehispanic1990.pdf https://www.iowadatacenter.org/datatables/UnitedStates/usstr...
  - amrocha 1y ago
    If you ever think about getting into an online argument with these people, let the fact that pointing out that not white people are americans gets you downvoted stop you.
- Demiurge 1y ago
  > In almost all cases immigration replaces the need for native births - the latter being a key component for a strong, safe culture that creates a happy median population. Immigration in USA has multiple components, but it seems to be you're undervaluing the amount of opportunistic intellectual workers, who come here to participate in high level education, and entrepreneurial capitalism. But, here are the numbers across multiple sources (thx GPT): - High-skilled (H-1B + EB green cards + PhD retention): ~200–300k annually. - Low-wage (H-2A + H-2B + others): ~500k+ legally, probably >700k when including unauthorized inflows. This a pretty good amount of brain power absorption, not just farm work.
  - zksijdjd 1y ago
Demiurge 1y ago
> - America integration doesn’t exist. The American strategy has always been leave people alone to keep living in their own culture. There is no actual American identity. The only things American have in common in the shared trauma of slavery and the civil war, and the founding myth which is why they remain so prevalent in the US modern discourse. Meanwhile, people will happily talk about "race" culture, half the country would be happy to slaughter the other half and culturally linked riots are a thing. As an immigrant to USA, living here for 20 years, you're unequivocally wrong about this point. There is an American culture, and cult of "American dream". There are English as a Second Language programs, job integration programs, classes at every language of educations, rules and traditions for immigrant flow. The police, governments, and citizens of USA all know this is a country of immigrants and all have respect for immigrants, even if there is an "illegal" immigrant backlash right now. The threat of violence coming from political extremes absolutely does not represent the majority of people every day interactions. In sum, American integration does exist, and I have first hand and second hand data to prove it. I'm not an expert on your other points, and I think you're trying to prove the sky is not blue, but genuinely, good luck.
Levitz 1y ago
This is incoherent babble. Not in a figurative or metaphorical way, you are not making sense and this kind of discourse is exactly what ensures that the far right will occupy most governments in Europe in some 10-20 years time, which I'm absolutely not looking forward to. >America integration doesn’t exist. This premise > The American strategy has always been leave people alone to keep living in their own culture. Contradicts this. You can't have both of those things. you EXTRA can't have them when you further talk about American culture in the same goddamned line. > Europe has a cultural entity doesn’t exist. This premise >The way Islam has been managed is an issue in itself. People deserve to be able to practice their cult freely and in good condition but most European countries have refused to take charge of the question Contradicts this. And to be completely honest, this ending: >Plenty of political parties in Europe have strong visions for the future. Some of them are linked to social justice and preserving the environment, things you obviously dislike. The fact you can’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist however. Straight up makes me think you are not serious at all and straight up trolling. But in the off chance you aren't, I mean it when I say you are the problem you want to fight against.
- StopDisinfo910 1y ago
  There are no contradictions where you pretend they are. You can’t claim something doesn’t make sense because you have nothing to oppose to it. Nice try in your last paragraph anyway. Most European countries can fail at the same things while not having a shared culture identity. I have pointed you towards one example. Same about America. This is not a contradiction. America purposefully doesn’t integrate people because there is nothing to actually integrate them into. America taken as a whole is from my point of view not a nation. It is a collection of groups often with little in common forming a country but in tension about how it should work. Some subgroups in the USA could arguably be considered nations with shared identities but certainly not the federation. I will hasard you actually are the problem.
pembrook 1y ago
I find it very ironic your username is 'StopDisinfo.' First, the idea there is no American integration is just funny, given millions of your countrymen moved to the US just 2-3 generations ago and yet French identity is essentially non-existent in the US. In fact, there's more ethnically french people in America than in Canada, and yet Canada has very strong french cultural identity by comparison. Second, I wasn't arguing against immigration and am not "far-right" (I'm absolutely pro-immigration), just explaining why Europe will never be able to do it en masse like the USA used to (they can't do it as much anymore either). The reality: Socialist policy makes immigration an impossibility. The more socialist a country, the more aggressive its stance against immigration becomes. This is not a coincidence but a direct causal relationship. People don't want to pay for random 2nd/3rd-world immigrants to suddenly get free healthcare, education and pension. It's that simple. It's no secret that after America built its welfare state in the 1930s, this led to a dramatic shift to a closed immigration policy. And as the welfare state in the US has grown (from 25% of GDP in the 1950s to 35% today), the anti-immigrant sentiment just keeps rising. European countries are no different, having grown their socialist welfare states dramatically over the past 60 years (from 25-ish% to 50% of GDP today). And thus, you get increasingly aggressive anti-immigrant backlash when times get tough. The irony of the modern leftist is they don't understand the impossibility of their supposed beliefs. You cannot be both pro-immigration and pro-socialism. They are oil and water. Either you believe immigration is a good force in the world, and thus want libertarian capitalist policy like the US pre-1930s. Or you want socialism, which leads to closed borders, and only pretend to like immigration to make people think you're a good person at parties.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
UltraSane 1y ago
"half the country would be happy to slaughter the other half" You are talking complete nonsense.

zksijdjd 1y ago

[flagged]

amanaplanacanal 1y ago
> An American is (on the whole) somebody who’s genetically European and has had family here for generations. This is obviously nonsense. "White" Americans are something like 57% of the population. The US is very mixed, and always has been.
- zksijdjd 1y ago
  > The US is very mixed, and always has been You can search US demographic data from a plethora of sources to see this is not true. It’s a recent development enabled by modern laws and policies.
- Levitz 1y ago
  The US was 80% White 35 years ago https://www.iowadatacenter.org/datatables/UnitedStates/usstracehispanic1990.pdf https://www.iowadatacenter.org/datatables/UnitedStates/usstr...
- amrocha 1y ago
  If you ever think about getting into an online argument with these people, let the fact that pointing out that not white people are americans gets you downvoted stop you.
Demiurge 1y ago
> In almost all cases immigration replaces the need for native births - the latter being a key component for a strong, safe culture that creates a happy median population. Immigration in USA has multiple components, but it seems to be you're undervaluing the amount of opportunistic intellectual workers, who come here to participate in high level education, and entrepreneurial capitalism. But, here are the numbers across multiple sources (thx GPT): - High-skilled (H-1B + EB green cards + PhD retention): ~200–300k annually. - Low-wage (H-2A + H-2B + others): ~500k+ legally, probably >700k when including unauthorized inflows. This a pretty good amount of brain power absorption, not just farm work.
- zksijdjd 1y ago

Demiurge 1y ago

> - America integration doesn’t exist. The American strategy has always been leave people alone to keep living in their own culture. There is no actual American identity. The only things American have in common in the shared trauma of slavery and the civil war, and the founding myth which is why they remain so prevalent in the US modern discourse. Meanwhile, people will happily talk about "race" culture, half the country would be happy to slaughter the other half and culturally linked riots are a thing. As an immigrant to USA, living here for 20 years, you're unequivocally wrong about this point. There is an American culture, and cult of "American dream". There are English as a Second Language programs, job integration programs, classes at every language of educations, rules and traditions for immigrant flow. The police, governments, and citizens of USA all know this is a country of immigrants and all have respect for immigrants, even if there is an "illegal" immigrant backlash right now. The threat of violence coming from political extremes absolutely does not represent the majority of people every day interactions. In sum, American integration does exist, and I have first hand and second hand data to prove it. I'm not an expert on your other points, and I think you're trying to prove the sky is not blue, but genuinely, good luck.

Levitz 1y ago

This is incoherent babble. Not in a figurative or metaphorical way, you are not making sense and this kind of discourse is exactly what ensures that the far right will occupy most governments in Europe in some 10-20 years time, which I'm absolutely not looking forward to. >America integration doesn’t exist. This premise > The American strategy has always been leave people alone to keep living in their own culture. Contradicts this. You can't have both of those things. you EXTRA can't have them when you further talk about American culture in the same goddamned line. > Europe has a cultural entity doesn’t exist. This premise >The way Islam has been managed is an issue in itself. People deserve to be able to practice their cult freely and in good condition but most European countries have refused to take charge of the question Contradicts this. And to be completely honest, this ending: >Plenty of political parties in Europe have strong visions for the future. Some of them are linked to social justice and preserving the environment, things you obviously dislike. The fact you can’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist however. Straight up makes me think you are not serious at all and straight up trolling. But in the off chance you aren't, I mean it when I say you are the problem you want to fight against.

StopDisinfo910 1y ago
There are no contradictions where you pretend they are. You can’t claim something doesn’t make sense because you have nothing to oppose to it. Nice try in your last paragraph anyway. Most European countries can fail at the same things while not having a shared culture identity. I have pointed you towards one example. Same about America. This is not a contradiction. America purposefully doesn’t integrate people because there is nothing to actually integrate them into. America taken as a whole is from my point of view not a nation. It is a collection of groups often with little in common forming a country but in tension about how it should work. Some subgroups in the USA could arguably be considered nations with shared identities but certainly not the federation. I will hasard you actually are the problem.

pembrook 1y ago

I find it very ironic your username is 'StopDisinfo.' First, the idea there is no American integration is just funny, given millions of your countrymen moved to the US just 2-3 generations ago and yet French identity is essentially non-existent in the US. In fact, there's more ethnically french people in America than in Canada, and yet Canada has very strong french cultural identity by comparison. Second, I wasn't arguing against immigration and am not "far-right" (I'm absolutely pro-immigration), just explaining why Europe will never be able to do it en masse like the USA used to (they can't do it as much anymore either). The reality: Socialist policy makes immigration an impossibility. The more socialist a country, the more aggressive its stance against immigration becomes. This is not a coincidence but a direct causal relationship. People don't want to pay for random 2nd/3rd-world immigrants to suddenly get free healthcare, education and pension. It's that simple. It's no secret that after America built its welfare state in the 1930s, this led to a dramatic shift to a closed immigration policy. And as the welfare state in the US has grown (from 25% of GDP in the 1950s to 35% today), the anti-immigrant sentiment just keeps rising. European countries are no different, having grown their socialist welfare states dramatically over the past 60 years (from 25-ish% to 50% of GDP today). And thus, you get increasingly aggressive anti-immigrant backlash when times get tough. The irony of the modern leftist is they don't understand the impossibility of their supposed beliefs. You cannot be both pro-immigration and pro-socialism. They are oil and water. Either you believe immigration is a good force in the world, and thus want libertarian capitalist policy like the US pre-1930s. Or you want socialism, which leads to closed borders, and only pretend to like immigration to make people think you're a good person at parties.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

UltraSane 1y ago

"half the country would be happy to slaughter the other half" You are talking complete nonsense.