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John can be quite blunt and harsh in person, from everyone I know who’s interacted with him. If he doesn’t believe in something, he can sometimes be over criti

by dagmx 1y ago

John can be quite blunt and harsh in person, from everyone I know who’s interacted with him. If he doesn’t believe in something, he can sometimes be over critical and it’s hard to push back in that kind of power imbalance.

stephc_int13 1y ago
Carmack is a legend and I admire his work, but he seems to believe his own legend these days (like a few others big-ego gamedevs) and that can lead to arbitrary preferences being sold as gospel.
- spydum 1y ago
  I'm sure that's true but I've worked with a lot of engineers that are of this caliber and as long as you can form a coherent logical explanation they will bend they're way more open than you expect. But you got to put in the work to make that argument. They won't take it on faith
  - stephc_int13 1y ago
    It is an entirely different thing, gifted, highly experienced and confident in his assertions is quite frequent, but the cult-like following and status of personalities like Carmack or Blow can seriously alter their own self perception and importance.
    - Aeolun 1y ago
      Of course it can. It’s hard not to assume you are right if everyone keeps telling you so. I can’t really fault them for that. The challenge is to continue being right more often than not.
    - baq 1y ago
      First, look at what they’re shipping, then decide the likelihood of them being right. Maybe you know something they don’t; it’s actually very likely. But maybe what you think matters actually doesn’t at all and ultimately they’re right. In either case, they were shipping, so best to listen and be prepared if you disagree.
- anikom15 1y ago
  What was your experience working with him?
- rvba 1y ago
  If you want to build 3d glasses probably you should fpcus on 3d glassess and software for it. Not some new OS so you can start making the glasses 2 years later. Just like when you want to bake a cake, you dont start by designing an oven, or creating an universe from scratch
WD-42 1y ago
Which makes sense when you are one of 3 developers at ID software. There's absolutely no room for waste. This is Meta. Let the kids build their operating system ffs. Is he now more concerned with protecting shareholder value? Who cares.
- Fade_Dance 1y ago
  >Is he now more concerned with protecting shareholder value? Who cares. It doesn't sound like he's concerned with waste. It sounds like it's a typical Carmack argument - distilled and hyper logical, and his conclusion is more to do with the pointlessness of it. He actually concedes the point that the project may have been highly efficient (which it may or may not have been, he was steelmanning). His main points seemed to be: If every cycle matters and efficiency is paramount, just make the project monolithic C++ code. If every cycle matters, that is somewhat incompatible with general purpose OSs, and if it doesn't, the existing landscape is more than good enough. Presumably, he's calling out the absurdity of counter-arguments which are being unrealistic about the objectives of creating a new general purpose OS, while also focusing on extreme efficiency. He states that the requirements to fully achieve these objectives would require a "monastic coding enclave" like Plan 9 OS, and it wasn't realistic even with the high talent in Meta. And that plays into the second point, which seems to essentially be "new OSs aren't a draw for developers, they are a burden". This is painfully obvious when looking at the history of OSs and software, and it's the obvious reason why "let the kids build their operating system ffs" should result in a reflexive "noooo..." from the greybeards. The deeper point though is that if A. is achieved, the B. Burden on devs will be even more onerous. Therefore unless the entire project is committed to truly moving crowds to new paradigms (good luck, literally billions have been lost here), just use the proven, faily high performance options that have widespread support. The conclusion is "on balance, it's a bad idea." He's arguing it sharply (although I understand a Carmack steelman is intimidating to attack), but in essence it's a fairly banal and conservative conclusion, backed with strong precedent.
- leoc 1y ago
  Meta's AR/VR division has burned a huge amount of money and years of time, with relatively little to show for it. Now it seems to be on the verge of being cancelled or slashed back, and in response people are saying that this proves VR, something Carmack champions, is commercially untenable or even that Carmack himself is partly responsible for the failed initiative. I don't even entirely agree with him on the question of whether anyone should try developing a new OS, but he's been proven absolutely right that there was no room for him to be that complacent about the use of Meta's resources.
daseiner1 1y ago
[flagged]
- kid64 1y ago
  Are you arguing that everyone's power is equal? What an asinine position.
  - dagmx 1y ago
    It must either be a belief that everyone is equal, and that they would be comfortable telling Carmack that he’s wrong. Or it’s an appeal to authority in that if a person of authority says it then they must be right so there’s no reason to push back in the first place.
    - daseiner1 1y ago
      i would absolutely feel comfortable challenging him in a well-intentioned and non-disruptive manner. it's entirely possible i'd get shitcanned afterwards and if so, that's fine, it wouldn't've worked out anyways for me if that's the environment. i've personally never been afraid to challenge people above me on the org chart who have the ability to fire me with a snap of their fingers (again, in appropriate, non-grossly confrontational ways). it's generally worked out quite well for me and tends to gain me respect in the eyes of my superiors. successful people tend not to have great respect for sycophants. the good news is that in this hypothetical i'd be skilled and talented enough to be working with john fucking carmack so i wouldn't exactly be concerned about my ability to find a new gig in about 3 days. that's my point. now if there were evidence he'd be liable to blackball me in some way (no evidence of that to my knowledge), then the power disparity argument has more legs in my opinion.
- rib3ye 1y ago
  of course he has more power, but at this point, he's earned it. and also, it wasn't enough to "win" against a den-of-wolves place filled with power-players like meta.
- Uehreka 1y ago

by dagmx 1y ago

stephc_int13 1y ago

Carmack is a legend and I admire his work, but he seems to believe his own legend these days (like a few others big-ego gamedevs) and that can lead to arbitrary preferences being sold as gospel.

spydum 1y ago
I'm sure that's true but I've worked with a lot of engineers that are of this caliber and as long as you can form a coherent logical explanation they will bend they're way more open than you expect. But you got to put in the work to make that argument. They won't take it on faith
- stephc_int13 1y ago
  It is an entirely different thing, gifted, highly experienced and confident in his assertions is quite frequent, but the cult-like following and status of personalities like Carmack or Blow can seriously alter their own self perception and importance.
  - Aeolun 1y ago
    Of course it can. It’s hard not to assume you are right if everyone keeps telling you so. I can’t really fault them for that. The challenge is to continue being right more often than not.
  - baq 1y ago
    First, look at what they’re shipping, then decide the likelihood of them being right. Maybe you know something they don’t; it’s actually very likely. But maybe what you think matters actually doesn’t at all and ultimately they’re right. In either case, they were shipping, so best to listen and be prepared if you disagree.
anikom15 1y ago
What was your experience working with him?
rvba 1y ago
If you want to build 3d glasses probably you should fpcus on 3d glassess and software for it. Not some new OS so you can start making the glasses 2 years later. Just like when you want to bake a cake, you dont start by designing an oven, or creating an universe from scratch

WD-42 1y ago

Which makes sense when you are one of 3 developers at ID software. There's absolutely no room for waste. This is Meta. Let the kids build their operating system ffs. Is he now more concerned with protecting shareholder value? Who cares.

Fade_Dance 1y ago
>Is he now more concerned with protecting shareholder value? Who cares. It doesn't sound like he's concerned with waste. It sounds like it's a typical Carmack argument - distilled and hyper logical, and his conclusion is more to do with the pointlessness of it. He actually concedes the point that the project may have been highly efficient (which it may or may not have been, he was steelmanning). His main points seemed to be: If every cycle matters and efficiency is paramount, just make the project monolithic C++ code. If every cycle matters, that is somewhat incompatible with general purpose OSs, and if it doesn't, the existing landscape is more than good enough. Presumably, he's calling out the absurdity of counter-arguments which are being unrealistic about the objectives of creating a new general purpose OS, while also focusing on extreme efficiency. He states that the requirements to fully achieve these objectives would require a "monastic coding enclave" like Plan 9 OS, and it wasn't realistic even with the high talent in Meta. And that plays into the second point, which seems to essentially be "new OSs aren't a draw for developers, they are a burden". This is painfully obvious when looking at the history of OSs and software, and it's the obvious reason why "let the kids build their operating system ffs" should result in a reflexive "noooo..." from the greybeards. The deeper point though is that if A. is achieved, the B. Burden on devs will be even more onerous. Therefore unless the entire project is committed to truly moving crowds to new paradigms (good luck, literally billions have been lost here), just use the proven, faily high performance options that have widespread support. The conclusion is "on balance, it's a bad idea." He's arguing it sharply (although I understand a Carmack steelman is intimidating to attack), but in essence it's a fairly banal and conservative conclusion, backed with strong precedent.
leoc 1y ago
Meta's AR/VR division has burned a huge amount of money and years of time, with relatively little to show for it. Now it seems to be on the verge of being cancelled or slashed back, and in response people are saying that this proves VR, something Carmack champions, is commercially untenable or even that Carmack himself is partly responsible for the failed initiative. I don't even entirely agree with him on the question of whether anyone should try developing a new OS, but he's been proven absolutely right that there was no room for him to be that complacent about the use of Meta's resources.

daseiner1 1y ago

[flagged]

kid64 1y ago
Are you arguing that everyone's power is equal? What an asinine position.
- dagmx 1y ago
  It must either be a belief that everyone is equal, and that they would be comfortable telling Carmack that he’s wrong. Or it’s an appeal to authority in that if a person of authority says it then they must be right so there’s no reason to push back in the first place.
  - daseiner1 1y ago
    i would absolutely feel comfortable challenging him in a well-intentioned and non-disruptive manner. it's entirely possible i'd get shitcanned afterwards and if so, that's fine, it wouldn't've worked out anyways for me if that's the environment. i've personally never been afraid to challenge people above me on the org chart who have the ability to fire me with a snap of their fingers (again, in appropriate, non-grossly confrontational ways). it's generally worked out quite well for me and tends to gain me respect in the eyes of my superiors. successful people tend not to have great respect for sycophants. the good news is that in this hypothetical i'd be skilled and talented enough to be working with john fucking carmack so i wouldn't exactly be concerned about my ability to find a new gig in about 3 days. that's my point. now if there were evidence he'd be liable to blackball me in some way (no evidence of that to my knowledge), then the power disparity argument has more legs in my opinion.
rib3ye 1y ago
of course he has more power, but at this point, he's earned it. and also, it wasn't enough to "win" against a den-of-wolves place filled with power-players like meta.
Uehreka 1y ago