5 ms·

> there is no information in a rejection. The most helpful job interview I had was when the interviewer broke script and just leveled with me about how I wasn'

by jimmar 1y ago

> there is no information in a rejection. The most helpful job interview I had was when the interviewer broke script and just leveled with me about how I wasn't presenting myself well. There was a shared connection (our alma mater) that must have convinced him to be straight with me instead of hiding how poorly I was doing behind a mask. The HR handbooks say that you should never let a candidate know why they were not selected, but that information can be extremely helpful. If you're not getting offers, I strongly recommend that you find somebody you trust to do a mock interview. Let them critique your resume, cover letter, posture, awkwardness, lame handshake, etc.

WalterBright 1y ago
The HR handbooks say that for good reason. Telling a candidate why they were rejected means they'll argue with you, or worse, file a lawsuit.
- xattt 1y ago
  Yeah… the common connection thing is what’s at play here. This is why high-stakes introductions are done through people you know, to show that you can be trusted lest you be a social outcast.
- mordechai9000 1y ago
  A couple years ago I was turned down for a position after an initial screening interview because they said my writing sample didn't meet certain criteria. I felt it arguably did, but I just said "thank you for your time and consideration", and moved on. I was just glad to get a clear "no" at an early stage. They've probably revised their policy by now, I suspect, but I appreciated that they made the effort.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    Their policy will last until they're sued. All it takes is one to ruin it for everybody.
- DangitBobby 1y ago
  I'm not convinced they'd prevail in court. Seems like one of those truthisms about American litigiousness that wouldn't bear out in practice.
  - sneak 1y ago
    Doesn’t matter. Simply defending against the claim costs significant money, and you can’t recover those costs. Best to avoid the claim altogether.
    - DangitBobby 1y ago
      Still dubious. I don't think miniscule risk justifies shitty behavior and making life worse for everyone.
      - xpe 1y ago
        I feel you, but there is a big difference between (a) "justification" in the overall cost versus benefit to all parties involved and (b) the narrowly self-interested thing to do.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      Filing such a claim costs money too, and any decent lawyer will tell the claimant that he has no case.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- sitkack 1y ago
  I have done about 75 coding interviews for big tech companies. I have told a fair number of people (around 10) that I would be submitting a no-hire, but then I went on to coach them for another 15 minutes on how they could improve. I never once heard from anyone on the subject and all the people I told were actually grateful 1) that they wouldn't be left wondering and 2) how they could pass the next one. I'd want someone to do the same.
  - htrp 1y ago
    All it takes is 1 candidate with an axe to grind and I guarantee you'll never give feedback again.
    - saagarjha 1y ago
      It's fine to build a better world until then.
      - anon35 1y ago
        "Until then" means others will pay for your decision to ignore policy when it happens. It's never on the person who -- with every good intention, full of an instinct to "build a better world" -- willfully ignores the stuffy rules in handbooks and HR guidelines. Instead, when it backfires and someone does threaten to sue, it's precisely execs, HRs, legal who have to deal with it. The rules are there for good reason.
        saagarjha 1y ago
        I run our hiring process and my employer is small enough that I would be personally responsible for this
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        A better world would be one with no locks on doors. But until then, I'm going to lock doors.
Loughla 1y ago
In the United States, most junior/community colleges have career centers that will do this. There are also economic development boards in essentially every town with a population over 1000; they can connect you to places to do mock interviews. Very helpful for new interviewees, whether just out of college or during a career transition.
user_7832 1y ago
> If you're not getting offers, I strongly recommend that you find somebody you trust to do a mock interview. Let them critique your resume, cover letter, posture, awkwardness, lame handshake, etc. Slightly odd question but: what if it's the opposite of this? Interviews are almost never an issue. I would like to think (and have been told so too) that I'm both technically sharp and knowledgeable enough, and can communicate well enough. I have a firm handshake, and thanks to the ability to happily dive into topics I read up on, I can speak confidently - both on hard facts, as well as my understanding or opinion of any technical matter in my field - for hours maybe, if not longer. But getting the interview... is.. legitimately hard. Multiple people have said my resume is quite solid, but I rarely get through beyond the base round. Would you have any tips for just the act of getting a foot in the door, so to say? I'm reasonably optimistic I can take it from there. (Two things I can probably change - using customized CVs (and a cover letter, where applicable), and reaching out to employees/HR at the places I'm applying at. Though that honestly seems exhausting with so many applications...)
- anktor 1y ago
  Without any context of culture or country, just trying to be helpful: in my limited (<20 total interviews) experience, I would think about budget issues. Meaning, what you ask for (or how expensive you are perceived, if you have that strong resumee) for the industry you apply, may be too different and leading to limited access. Sometimes I feel junior people have it easier (I felt like I did, personally) since the expense in salary is pretty limited compared to either other roles or more senior people
  - user_7832 1y ago
    Thanks! However... I am very junior right now lol (<1 YOE) (I have applied to both competitive as well as more niche firms fwiw, I expect there have been stronger resumes I've "lost to". Though, my degree isn't a "common" one even though it's actually very suitable.)
    - toast0 1y ago
      It's not you. As a junior, there are going to be so many candidates for anything you feel qualified to apply for. It's a numbers game. IMHO, you should still tailor your resume to fit the position. I'd put together a too long resume with everything, and trim off irrelevant stuff so it's down to one page (maybe two, if that's the standard locally) of mostly relevant things for each position; when your resume does get looked at, you want it to pass muster. Do your best to network. Think about the people you went to school with: who among them would you like to work with. Every week, send 2-5 of them an email, remind them of what you did in school together, ask them how their summer/etc was, how are they doing at job hunting/if they like the job they found. If you don't mind looking a little desperate, in that email write something like I'm having a hard time getting interviews, have you found anything that works? If you don't wait for their reply... if they got hired, ask if their company is hiring; if they're still looking ask for tips. Check in with your school's career center. Check in with your favorite professors. Check in with your parents' friends and your friends' parents. A personal connection is likely to get your resume looked at closely and not just ignored because there were 1000 applicants and 10 candidates seemed worth interviewing in the first 100, so they didn't look at the rest. It might not get you an interview, but it helps your chances; also, a personal connection might get a referral to an unrelated opening which is unlikely for an unconnected application. I would definitely send a friend's kid to another friend at a different company if I thought that was a potential match, but I wouldn't consider it for a resume that just came in.

by jimmar 1y ago

WalterBright 1y ago

The HR handbooks say that for good reason. Telling a candidate why they were rejected means they'll argue with you, or worse, file a lawsuit.

xattt 1y ago
Yeah… the common connection thing is what’s at play here. This is why high-stakes introductions are done through people you know, to show that you can be trusted lest you be a social outcast.
mordechai9000 1y ago
A couple years ago I was turned down for a position after an initial screening interview because they said my writing sample didn't meet certain criteria. I felt it arguably did, but I just said "thank you for your time and consideration", and moved on. I was just glad to get a clear "no" at an early stage. They've probably revised their policy by now, I suspect, but I appreciated that they made the effort.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  Their policy will last until they're sued. All it takes is one to ruin it for everybody.
DangitBobby 1y ago
I'm not convinced they'd prevail in court. Seems like one of those truthisms about American litigiousness that wouldn't bear out in practice.
- sneak 1y ago
  Doesn’t matter. Simply defending against the claim costs significant money, and you can’t recover those costs. Best to avoid the claim altogether.
  - DangitBobby 1y ago
    Still dubious. I don't think miniscule risk justifies shitty behavior and making life worse for everyone.
    - xpe 1y ago
      I feel you, but there is a big difference between (a) "justification" in the overall cost versus benefit to all parties involved and (b) the narrowly self-interested thing to do.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    Filing such a claim costs money too, and any decent lawyer will tell the claimant that he has no case.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
sitkack 1y ago
I have done about 75 coding interviews for big tech companies. I have told a fair number of people (around 10) that I would be submitting a no-hire, but then I went on to coach them for another 15 minutes on how they could improve. I never once heard from anyone on the subject and all the people I told were actually grateful 1) that they wouldn't be left wondering and 2) how they could pass the next one. I'd want someone to do the same.
- htrp 1y ago
  All it takes is 1 candidate with an axe to grind and I guarantee you'll never give feedback again.
  - saagarjha 1y ago
    It's fine to build a better world until then.
    - anon35 1y ago
      "Until then" means others will pay for your decision to ignore policy when it happens. It's never on the person who -- with every good intention, full of an instinct to "build a better world" -- willfully ignores the stuffy rules in handbooks and HR guidelines. Instead, when it backfires and someone does threaten to sue, it's precisely execs, HRs, legal who have to deal with it. The rules are there for good reason.
      - saagarjha 1y ago
        I run our hiring process and my employer is small enough that I would be personally responsible for this
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      A better world would be one with no locks on doors. But until then, I'm going to lock doors.

Loughla 1y ago

In the United States, most junior/community colleges have career centers that will do this. There are also economic development boards in essentially every town with a population over 1000; they can connect you to places to do mock interviews. Very helpful for new interviewees, whether just out of college or during a career transition.

user_7832 1y ago

> If you're not getting offers, I strongly recommend that you find somebody you trust to do a mock interview. Let them critique your resume, cover letter, posture, awkwardness, lame handshake, etc. Slightly odd question but: what if it's the opposite of this? Interviews are almost never an issue. I would like to think (and have been told so too) that I'm both technically sharp and knowledgeable enough, and can communicate well enough. I have a firm handshake, and thanks to the ability to happily dive into topics I read up on, I can speak confidently - both on hard facts, as well as my understanding or opinion of any technical matter in my field - for hours maybe, if not longer. But getting the interview... is.. legitimately hard. Multiple people have said my resume is quite solid, but I rarely get through beyond the base round. Would you have any tips for just the act of getting a foot in the door, so to say? I'm reasonably optimistic I can take it from there. (Two things I can probably change - using customized CVs (and a cover letter, where applicable), and reaching out to employees/HR at the places I'm applying at. Though that honestly seems exhausting with so many applications...)

anktor 1y ago
Without any context of culture or country, just trying to be helpful: in my limited (<20 total interviews) experience, I would think about budget issues. Meaning, what you ask for (or how expensive you are perceived, if you have that strong resumee) for the industry you apply, may be too different and leading to limited access. Sometimes I feel junior people have it easier (I felt like I did, personally) since the expense in salary is pretty limited compared to either other roles or more senior people
- user_7832 1y ago
  Thanks! However... I am very junior right now lol (<1 YOE) (I have applied to both competitive as well as more niche firms fwiw, I expect there have been stronger resumes I've "lost to". Though, my degree isn't a "common" one even though it's actually very suitable.)
  - toast0 1y ago
    It's not you. As a junior, there are going to be so many candidates for anything you feel qualified to apply for. It's a numbers game. IMHO, you should still tailor your resume to fit the position. I'd put together a too long resume with everything, and trim off irrelevant stuff so it's down to one page (maybe two, if that's the standard locally) of mostly relevant things for each position; when your resume does get looked at, you want it to pass muster. Do your best to network. Think about the people you went to school with: who among them would you like to work with. Every week, send 2-5 of them an email, remind them of what you did in school together, ask them how their summer/etc was, how are they doing at job hunting/if they like the job they found. If you don't mind looking a little desperate, in that email write something like I'm having a hard time getting interviews, have you found anything that works? If you don't wait for their reply... if they got hired, ask if their company is hiring; if they're still looking ask for tips. Check in with your school's career center. Check in with your favorite professors. Check in with your parents' friends and your friends' parents. A personal connection is likely to get your resume looked at closely and not just ignored because there were 1000 applicants and 10 candidates seemed worth interviewing in the first 100, so they didn't look at the rest. It might not get you an interview, but it helps your chances; also, a personal connection might get a referral to an unrelated opening which is unlikely for an unconnected application. I would definitely send a friend's kid to another friend at a different company if I thought that was a potential match, but I wouldn't consider it for a resume that just came in.