5 ms·

German Economist fined €16,100 for sarcastic X posts

49 points by uyzstvqs 1y ago

jihadjihad 1y ago
Initially upvoted because it's disturbing, but can anyone corroborate this story? There are no mainstream mentions of this story or this person Thomas Vierhaus, and I am using the word "mainstream" pretty liberally. The only mention I can find is an all-German article in The Epoch Times, which is far from a mainstream source of news [0]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times
- Winblows11 1y ago
  I wouldn't trust "reclaimthenet.org" after reading this HN post 9 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549
- SanjayMehta 1y ago
  https://jungefreiheit.de/politik/deutschland/2025/goering-eckardt-beleidigt-mann-droht-fuenfstellige-geldstrafe/ https://jungefreiheit.de/politik/deutschland/2025/goering-ec...
- sharpshadow 1y ago
  It became a very common thing recently that German politians are working together with companies which scan social media sites for posts with insults and file cease and desist orders with money penalities or taking it even further to court. Check for Robert Habeck and Strack-Zimmermann for example which both served over 1000 of those earning hundreds of thousands euros. The case with Thomas Vierhaus is even quite old but he apperently refused to pay and got a Strafbefehl now which he appealed.
  - jihadjihad 1y ago
    Again, where are the sources for any of these claims? These are unsubstantiated by evidence.
    - Tarsul 1y ago
      German article about Robert Habeck and Twitter, unfortunately paylocked but the first 10 lucky ones can click my gift link: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/robert-habeck-hausdurchsuchung-bei-rentner-wegen-beleidigung-ist-die-aufregung-gerechtfertigt-a-6c1fd247-12ce-498d-8f64-984a02ccf2da?giftToken=7281e53c-60b6-421c-a34f-d8aefeab9432 https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/robert-habeck-hausdur...
- marcusverus 1y ago
  The Epoch Times article[0] cites an article by Apollo News[0]. I'm not particularly familiar with either. This appears to be Mr Vierhous's X handle: https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus, which includes a retweet of a tweet by someone claiming to be handling this case on Thomas' behalf and this tweet[2] which appears to show the citation he was served. If it's a ruse, they've gone through a lot of trouble. [0] https://archive.is/mDQ3u https://archive.is/mDQ3u [1] https://archive.is/SEyzo https://archive.is/SEyzo [2] https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus/status/1957345154420895946 https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus/status/1957345154420895946
  - jihadjihad 1y ago
    > If it's a ruse, they've gone through a lot of trouble. Apollo News [1] has a Controversies section on the German Wikipedia in which the same Green Party member mentioned in TFA whom the "German Economist" allegedly posted on X about (Katrin Göring-Eckardt) had statements which "were 'distorted beyond recognition' in a TikTok video by Apollo News." I'd say that their entire business is going through trouble for ruses like these, and that therefore they are not worth our time. 1: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_News https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_News
    - hitekker 1y ago
      Apollo News sounds like German Fox News. But it looks like the citation behind "distorted beyond recognition" is itself misleading. The fact-check admits: > At a discussion event, Green Party politician Katrin Göring-Eckardt advocated for networks where East Germans who have problems with right-wing relatives can register The rest of the cited fact check searches for technicalities to diminish Apollo's conclusion that the politician wanted "denunciation of relatives". In my reckoning, the politician's rhetoric was not "distorted beyond recognition"; rather, the consequence of their rhetoric was highlighted. IMHO, I wouldn't dismiss semi-reputable news sources so easily. I think it's valuable to hear the other side (https://ground.news/blindspot https://ground.news/blindspot) especially when the fact-checkers/media on my side prefer that I just swallow the party line.
    - marcusverus 1y ago
sottol 1y ago
This is nothing new - Germany has always had pretty "strict" libel laws. Eg there have been "200,827 investigated cases as of 2009" [1]. I think this post comes in light of Europe being seen as curtailing free speech recently. Europe and the US have always had different ideas on the limits of free speech. [1] https://kellywarnerlaw.com/germany-defamation-laws https://kellywarnerlaw.com/germany-defamation-laws
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  >This is nothing new - Germany has always had pretty "strict" libel laws. If the police are involved, then this isn't even libel in the way that people from the United States tend to think of it. In the US, libel is strictly a tort, and while you might get zinged for some large sum, only lawyers are involved and not the cops. Hell, the standard's pretty high too, has to be both damaging and a statement of fact that the libeler knew to be untrue.
- Beijinger 1y ago
  Well, Germany has no idea about free speech and freedom. They only know the moral high ground, and they see their citizen as property that must be controlled and can't be trusted. In the US it is otherwise around. The founding fathers thought, that the government can't be trusted. The result is that the US Constitution is 250 years old and Germany has one failed state after another. Also, the current German state will fail. Likely within the next 10 years.
  - foxtacles 1y ago
    Unfortunately I have to agree with this take. This plus the anti-innovation and risk-averse culture is what drove me out of the country. Living in the United States now and enjoying the environment much more. (source: born and raised in Germany, lived there for 30 years)
  - V__ 1y ago
    That really is not a good takeaway. Regarding free speech: How many arrests happen in the U.S. at town halls, school assemblies etc. because someone says something the board or mayor doesn't like? How often do police officers arrest people for filming them and so on? The courts typically side with you, however let's not pretend there aren't any consequences. Be it jail or police brutality. Regarding the U.S. constitution: It is worthless. If the president can ignore it without consequence and the supreme court and congress doesn't care, what is the point? It may very well be that the state might fail, but let's be honest not before the U.S. will.
idiomat9000 1y ago
The establishment is loosing it and they dislike that reality and like all true left democrats at heart would rather vote for a new citizenry to replace the old.
- bootsmann 1y ago
  The website linked in the OP strongly supports the current US administration, how are they anything other than mainstream?
hitekker 1y ago
This offhand remark would likely have disappeared unnoticed if not for a doctoral student who had taken it upon himself to patrol the internet. The student filled out a criminal complaint form on Göring-Eckardt’s behalf and sent it to her. She signed and forwarded it to the police, setting off the first of several investigations into Vierhaus’s social media activity. The student had already filed complaints against Vierhaus for allegedly insulting several politicians, including Ricarda Lang, Janine Wissler, and Otto Köhler. I'd imagine plenty of folks on X or Bluesky would rejoice in this power: avenging imagined wrongs on behalf of their political masters. Lots of illusion and little accountability, perfect for the online mob.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- arduanika 1y ago
  It's a bit counterintuitive. Düsseldorf is in West Germany, but this here is some Stasi behavior.
  - alkyon 1y ago
    This might have its roots in Nazi era when even children happened to denounce their parents to the Gestapo. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20756166 https://www.jstor.org/stable/20756166 "Several historians have claimed that ordinary citizens who volunteered information on suspected infringements of the letter or spirit of the laws played a crucial role in everyday terror under Hitler's dictatorship"
gamma42 1y ago
[flagged]
- 78932459283568 1y ago
  [dead]
NitpickLawyer 1y ago
This source is highly dubious. Everything they link is to their own articles, the tone feels "off", and the snippet X post reads to me like any other rage-bait from "facebook groups" that get sent via e-mail by boomers. Reader beware. This site was also discussed a week ago here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549
gmerc 1y ago
Maybe just don't insult people. Doesn't seem hard.
lordkrandel 1y ago
Insult is not freedom of speech.
- 78932459283568 1y ago
  [dead]
orwin 1y ago
I didn't find any court filing (with Ai translation :/), has someone who can read German well enough found some? (also, clearly this website have a huge SEO budget, to be listed as first in any research i've done on this, that's serious money :/)

49 points by uyzstvqs 1y ago

Initially upvoted because it's disturbing, but can anyone corroborate this story? There are no mainstream mentions of this story or this person Thomas Vierhaus, and I am using the word "mainstream" pretty liberally. The only mention I can find is an all-German article in The Epoch Times, which is far from a mainstream source of news [0]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times

Winblows11 1y ago
I wouldn't trust "reclaimthenet.org" after reading this HN post 9 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549
SanjayMehta 1y ago
https://jungefreiheit.de/politik/deutschland/2025/goering-eckardt-beleidigt-mann-droht-fuenfstellige-geldstrafe/ https://jungefreiheit.de/politik/deutschland/2025/goering-ec...
sharpshadow 1y ago
It became a very common thing recently that German politians are working together with companies which scan social media sites for posts with insults and file cease and desist orders with money penalities or taking it even further to court. Check for Robert Habeck and Strack-Zimmermann for example which both served over 1000 of those earning hundreds of thousands euros. The case with Thomas Vierhaus is even quite old but he apperently refused to pay and got a Strafbefehl now which he appealed.
- jihadjihad 1y ago
  Again, where are the sources for any of these claims? These are unsubstantiated by evidence.
  - Tarsul 1y ago
    German article about Robert Habeck and Twitter, unfortunately paylocked but the first 10 lucky ones can click my gift link: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/robert-habeck-hausdurchsuchung-bei-rentner-wegen-beleidigung-ist-die-aufregung-gerechtfertigt-a-6c1fd247-12ce-498d-8f64-984a02ccf2da?giftToken=7281e53c-60b6-421c-a34f-d8aefeab9432 https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/robert-habeck-hausdur...
marcusverus 1y ago
The Epoch Times article[0] cites an article by Apollo News[0]. I'm not particularly familiar with either. This appears to be Mr Vierhous's X handle: https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus, which includes a retweet of a tweet by someone claiming to be handling this case on Thomas' behalf and this tweet[2] which appears to show the citation he was served. If it's a ruse, they've gone through a lot of trouble. [0] https://archive.is/mDQ3u https://archive.is/mDQ3u [1] https://archive.is/SEyzo https://archive.is/SEyzo [2] https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus/status/1957345154420895946 https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus/status/1957345154420895946
- jihadjihad 1y ago
  > If it's a ruse, they've gone through a lot of trouble. Apollo News [1] has a Controversies section on the German Wikipedia in which the same Green Party member mentioned in TFA whom the "German Economist" allegedly posted on X about (Katrin Göring-Eckardt) had statements which "were 'distorted beyond recognition' in a TikTok video by Apollo News." I'd say that their entire business is going through trouble for ruses like these, and that therefore they are not worth our time. 1: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_News https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_News
  - hitekker 1y ago
    Apollo News sounds like German Fox News. But it looks like the citation behind "distorted beyond recognition" is itself misleading. The fact-check admits: > At a discussion event, Green Party politician Katrin Göring-Eckardt advocated for networks where East Germans who have problems with right-wing relatives can register The rest of the cited fact check searches for technicalities to diminish Apollo's conclusion that the politician wanted "denunciation of relatives". In my reckoning, the politician's rhetoric was not "distorted beyond recognition"; rather, the consequence of their rhetoric was highlighted. IMHO, I wouldn't dismiss semi-reputable news sources so easily. I think it's valuable to hear the other side (https://ground.news/blindspot https://ground.news/blindspot) especially when the fact-checkers/media on my side prefer that I just swallow the party line.
  - marcusverus 1y ago

sottol 1y ago

This is nothing new - Germany has always had pretty "strict" libel laws. Eg there have been "200,827 investigated cases as of 2009" [1]. I think this post comes in light of Europe being seen as curtailing free speech recently. Europe and the US have always had different ideas on the limits of free speech. [1] https://kellywarnerlaw.com/germany-defamation-laws https://kellywarnerlaw.com/germany-defamation-laws

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
>This is nothing new - Germany has always had pretty "strict" libel laws. If the police are involved, then this isn't even libel in the way that people from the United States tend to think of it. In the US, libel is strictly a tort, and while you might get zinged for some large sum, only lawyers are involved and not the cops. Hell, the standard's pretty high too, has to be both damaging and a statement of fact that the libeler knew to be untrue.
Beijinger 1y ago
Well, Germany has no idea about free speech and freedom. They only know the moral high ground, and they see their citizen as property that must be controlled and can't be trusted. In the US it is otherwise around. The founding fathers thought, that the government can't be trusted. The result is that the US Constitution is 250 years old and Germany has one failed state after another. Also, the current German state will fail. Likely within the next 10 years.
- foxtacles 1y ago
  Unfortunately I have to agree with this take. This plus the anti-innovation and risk-averse culture is what drove me out of the country. Living in the United States now and enjoying the environment much more. (source: born and raised in Germany, lived there for 30 years)
- V__ 1y ago
  That really is not a good takeaway. Regarding free speech: How many arrests happen in the U.S. at town halls, school assemblies etc. because someone says something the board or mayor doesn't like? How often do police officers arrest people for filming them and so on? The courts typically side with you, however let's not pretend there aren't any consequences. Be it jail or police brutality. Regarding the U.S. constitution: It is worthless. If the president can ignore it without consequence and the supreme court and congress doesn't care, what is the point? It may very well be that the state might fail, but let's be honest not before the U.S. will.

idiomat9000 1y ago

The establishment is loosing it and they dislike that reality and like all true left democrats at heart would rather vote for a new citizenry to replace the old.

bootsmann 1y ago
The website linked in the OP strongly supports the current US administration, how are they anything other than mainstream?

hitekker 1y ago

This offhand remark would likely have disappeared unnoticed if not for a doctoral student who had taken it upon himself to patrol the internet. The student filled out a criminal complaint form on Göring-Eckardt’s behalf and sent it to her. She signed and forwarded it to the police, setting off the first of several investigations into Vierhaus’s social media activity. The student had already filed complaints against Vierhaus for allegedly insulting several politicians, including Ricarda Lang, Janine Wissler, and Otto Köhler. I'd imagine plenty of folks on X or Bluesky would rejoice in this power: avenging imagined wrongs on behalf of their political masters. Lots of illusion and little accountability, perfect for the online mob.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
arduanika 1y ago
It's a bit counterintuitive. Düsseldorf is in West Germany, but this here is some Stasi behavior.
- alkyon 1y ago
  This might have its roots in Nazi era when even children happened to denounce their parents to the Gestapo. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20756166 https://www.jstor.org/stable/20756166 "Several historians have claimed that ordinary citizens who volunteered information on suspected infringements of the letter or spirit of the laws played a crucial role in everyday terror under Hitler's dictatorship"

gamma42 1y ago

[flagged]

78932459283568 1y ago
[dead]

NitpickLawyer 1y ago

This source is highly dubious. Everything they link is to their own articles, the tone feels "off", and the snippet X post reads to me like any other rage-bait from "facebook groups" that get sent via e-mail by boomers. Reader beware. This site was also discussed a week ago here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549

gmerc 1y ago

Maybe just don't insult people. Doesn't seem hard.

lordkrandel 1y ago

Insult is not freedom of speech.

78932459283568 1y ago
[dead]

orwin 1y ago

I didn't find any court filing (with Ai translation :/), has someone who can read German well enough found some? (also, clearly this website have a huge SEO budget, to be listed as first in any research i've done on this, that's serious money :/)