6 ms·

Brazil offers America a lesson in democratic maturity

59 points by yakkomajuri 1y ago

yakkomajuri 1y ago
https://archive.is/20250828090209/https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/08/28/brazil-offers-america-a-lesson-in-democratic-maturity https://archive.is/20250828090209/https://www.economist.com/...
silveira 1y ago
50% tariff on Brazil so they stop offering lessons in democratic maturity.
- arduanika 1y ago
  We need to protect and reshore our own domestic lessons in democratic maturity. We can produce these hard lessons in the US again if we try!
  - verandaguy 1y ago
    Don't worry, the hard lessons are already being set up as we speak!
    - Freedom2 1y ago
      In two weeks we're going to have the biggest, most beautiful lessons.
- nielsbot 1y ago
  "You put your arm around your friend when there's something like this going on, and talk about what we're prepared to do together"
Varelion 1y ago
I hope Brazil sorts itself out, economically and in regards of crime and opportunity.
- nielsbot 1y ago
  Depends whether they support the working class or the ownership class. All politics is about this.
  - nickserv 1y ago
    "Oh there you go, bringing class into it again."
- e3bc54b2 1y ago
  I hope it does that, as I hope the same for USA.
- dkiebd 1y ago
  Brazil is a melting pot. It's completely impossible.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
ricokatayama 1y ago
I mean, almost every country could offer America a lesson about democracy nowadays.
- galfarragem 1y ago
  Some countries build walls to keep people out. Some countries build walls to keep people in...
galfarragem 1y ago
Counterargument (in portuguese) https://x.com/mortony13/status/1960261642014339524?s=46&t=36YAp_KohKzxh-N4cbc18Q https://x.com/mortony13/status/1960261642014339524?s=46&t=36...
- anderber 1y ago
  Unfortunately, that counter-argument lacks the understanding that the tariffs aren't meant to be a retaliatory tool against countries. The President's power to use tariffs is (supposed to be) meant as an emergency measure against unfair trade practices.
  - galfarragem 1y ago
    A nation has the sovereign right to implement tariffs. In response, other countries may exercise their right to apply retaliatory tariffs. Fairness and unfairness are subjective.
    - boroboro4 1y ago
      Notice “nation” part, not “president”. Tariffs power in the US vested in Congress, and Congress created laws which regulate it. What Trump is doing is outside of his legal powers, regardless to some conceptual reasoning why countries can do retaliation tariffs.
closewith 1y ago
I think this is overly optimistic, as PL is still wildly popular and the situation could easily reverse over the course of the next two elections. Not to mention nobody in Brazilian politics is lily white and a mature democracy would not be lead by Lula.
DanielHB 1y ago
Although the parallels are similar there is one big difference between US and Brazil political system: Dual-party system. Trump bullied the republican party and purged anyone who is not loyal to him, and through his party he got a good chunk of the congress to be subservient to him. Brazil has multiple parties and therefor Bolsonaro couldn't worm his way into having major legislative and judiciary power as well. One big thing in Brazil is that the voting process is conducted in two phases: Phase 1 all candidates get votes, if no one got >50% of the votes then there is a Phase 2 where only the top 2 candidates can be voted on. So voting for a 3rd party on Phase 1 is not detrimental and the main parties need to make coalitions. So it works a bit like you see in parliamentary systems, but once in power it is quite common for the coalitions to fade away or congress-people to vote against the coalition stalemating the legislative and reforms. It is also why there is so much corruption in Brazil's congress, vote-buying can be achieved on an individual-level instead of a party-level. Also please don't praise the current Brazilian president, he is part of the problem and making the country politics even more like the US (increasing polarization through populist movements). He is just doing it from the left side of the political spectrum. He is just not insane wannabe-dictator like Bolsonaro. The Trump playbook didn't work in Brazil because of the way the systems and institutions are set up. But these differences have both upsides and downsides.
- programmertote 1y ago
  Thank you for sharing the insights. I always wonder how multi-party system would work and seems like it's not all rose-y like I thought they are... Side note, the individual-level vote buying also happens in the US system unfortunately.
  - DanielHB 1y ago
    It looks very weird if a congress-person in the US votes against the party, isn't it?. In Brazil it is not that unnusual. In Brazil vote-buying happens through suit-cases full of dollars, in the US it happens through lobbying and promises of cushy jobs after you leave congress. Both are bad but suit-cases are much worse. This is also why it is so hard to actually enact reforms in Brazil, literally impossible to pass any big reforms without bribing a lot of people. Some politicians will actively vote against passing bills just because they didn't get a kickback.
komali2 1y ago
> Then the insurrection failed, the ex-president faced a criminal investigation and prosecutors put him on trial for plotting a coup. The Americans impeached this president once and nothing happened, and then also didn't they find him guilty of a ton of other crimes, and nothing happened? Do Americans have optimism that Trump won't be their first dictator for life and will actually face consequences for his crimes? As for me I'm so confident that Trump is America's last president that I'm trying to find ways to put money on it.
- carefulfungi 1y ago
  > impeached this president ~once~ twice. With two acquittals in the Senate.
- darksaints 1y ago
  I'm with you. America is already a failed state, a dead man walking, and people are still pretending like it can be fixed. There's only one way this country can be saved and, regardless of the process to get there, it would culminate in a new constitution.
  - cagey 1y ago
    > There's only one way this country can be saved and, regardless of the process to get there, it would culminate in a new constitution. NYT op-ed from 8/14 agreeing: "Abolish the Senate. End the Electoral College. Pack the Court. Why the left can’t win without a new Constitution." https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/14/opinion/trump-democracy-test-left.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/14/opinion/trump-democracy-t... https://archive.is/uNIPL https://archive.is/uNIPL
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > The Americans impeached this president once and nothing happened, Twice; there have been four impeachments of US Presidents, two of which were of Donald Trump during his previous term. > Do Americans have optimism that Trump won't be their first dictator for life and will actually face consequences for his crimes? I'm pretty confident that he WILL be a somewhat [0] dictatorial leader for life, but I think there are pretty good odds that this does not involve exceeding the maximum term limit set by the 22nd Amendment. [0] somewhat only in that I don't think the total destruction of institutions that would make it an absolute dictatorship rather than an aspirational one that still struggles against things like courts that, while mostly tame, still give some effect to Constitutional rights and limits is likely to be completed before Trump is, though not for lack of trying.
sizeofchar 1y ago
I am sorry, but this article is a bag of lies. It is just buying and broadcasting the official story from human rights violator Justice Alexandre de Morais, who is persecuting opposition and making up trials as Moscow did in the great purges.
nickserv 1y ago
A big difference between Brazil and the USA is that until 1985, Brazil was a dictatorship. The kind that "disappears" and tortures journalists and political opponents. So lots of people still alive today remember those days and understand the danger of politicians like Bolsonaro. People like the current president Lula, who was imprisoned during the dictatorship. The USA on the other hand, has never had a dictatorship in living memory. It's even debatable whether pre-independence it was a dictatorship, and in any case it is so far removed from the present that it has no impact on everyday life. Maybe for this reason there is a feeling of "it can't happen here". An exceptional ism that is not unwarranted given the incredible social and economic progress made. But this attitude is perhaps the most dangerous one can have towards fascism.
- DanielHB 1y ago
  You overestimate how much people remember of the dictatorship, my parents were very much pro-Bolsonaro and they lived through the dictatorship. Fact is for most of the population, especially the poorest, the dictatorship was not as oppressive directly against them. The secret police was going after intellectuals and universities. And censoring media of course. The average person only cared because the dictatorship was running the country economy into the ground.
  - nickserv 1y ago
    This is true as well, and in fact not uncommon for a dictatorship to have decent support as long as the economy is good. See: China (although unlike Brazil I have no direct experience there). It's also a well worn play book at this point to have people vote against their interests when given some enemy: religious or ethnic minorities, atheists, immigrants, a foreign power, etc... In any case I completely agree with all your points. Just that the situation is even more dangerous when the society has no experience dealing with dictators.
  - watwut 1y ago
    Yes. People in postcommunist coutries are always the first to give up on democracy. While they want own freedom, they tend to be bothered by freedom of others and many have nostalgia for "order". They see corruption as an opportunity and autocracy facilitates that.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
exabrial 1y ago
Right, so lets talk about the government banning speech they dont like? Both countries do it: a. trump trying to ban burning of american flags b. brazil banning elon musk tweets The difference is a. will not stand up in court and is protected free speech, while b. will never be overturned.
- karmakurtisaani 1y ago
  If a. goes to SC these days, there is no telling how the ruling would go.
- vitorgrs 1y ago
  Which Elon Musk tweets got banned?
dakial1 1y ago
Make no mistake here, Brazil is just not in the same situation as the US because Bolsonaro couldn't manage to equip the Superior Court with a majority of loyalists. Also Alexandre de Moraes is crossing the line of his role responsibility (and power) a lot to go after everyone in Bolsonaro's gang. So it is not quite a democracy, is just that Bolsonaro has stronger enemies than Trump. And this brings the question if to fight someone who does not care about the rules, you must become them and break the rules as well.
- matheusmoreira 1y ago
  > Also Alexandre de Moraes is crossing the line of his role responsibility (and power) a lot to go after everyone in Bolsonaro's gang. That's a serious understatement. The supreme court has usurped the functions of the entire government. These unelected judge-kings regularly walk all over our elected representatives in the legislative and executive branches of the government with absolute impunity. They relativize the constitution, make up laws as they go along and generally rule the country however they see fit. They are so brazen as to raise taxes. The only people who can impeach them are politicians who can't afford to make enemies out of the guys with the power to judge them for corruption. Watching some journalist preach about "democratic maturity" in the context of Brazil is just disgusting and reprehensible. Whatever people think of Trump, he's the only one who ever did a thing about this depressing situation so I'll forever thank him for it.

59 points by yakkomajuri 1y ago

https://archive.is/20250828090209/https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/08/28/brazil-offers-america-a-lesson-in-democratic-maturity https://archive.is/20250828090209/https://www.economist.com/...

silveira 1y ago

50% tariff on Brazil so they stop offering lessons in democratic maturity.

arduanika 1y ago
We need to protect and reshore our own domestic lessons in democratic maturity. We can produce these hard lessons in the US again if we try!
- verandaguy 1y ago
  Don't worry, the hard lessons are already being set up as we speak!
  - Freedom2 1y ago
    In two weeks we're going to have the biggest, most beautiful lessons.
nielsbot 1y ago
"You put your arm around your friend when there's something like this going on, and talk about what we're prepared to do together"

Varelion 1y ago

I hope Brazil sorts itself out, economically and in regards of crime and opportunity.

nielsbot 1y ago
Depends whether they support the working class or the ownership class. All politics is about this.
- nickserv 1y ago
  "Oh there you go, bringing class into it again."
e3bc54b2 1y ago
I hope it does that, as I hope the same for USA.
dkiebd 1y ago
Brazil is a melting pot. It's completely impossible.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

ricokatayama 1y ago

I mean, almost every country could offer America a lesson about democracy nowadays.

galfarragem 1y ago
Some countries build walls to keep people out. Some countries build walls to keep people in...

galfarragem 1y ago

Counterargument (in portuguese) https://x.com/mortony13/status/1960261642014339524?s=46&t=36YAp_KohKzxh-N4cbc18Q https://x.com/mortony13/status/1960261642014339524?s=46&t=36...

anderber 1y ago
Unfortunately, that counter-argument lacks the understanding that the tariffs aren't meant to be a retaliatory tool against countries. The President's power to use tariffs is (supposed to be) meant as an emergency measure against unfair trade practices.
- galfarragem 1y ago
  A nation has the sovereign right to implement tariffs. In response, other countries may exercise their right to apply retaliatory tariffs. Fairness and unfairness are subjective.
  - boroboro4 1y ago
    Notice “nation” part, not “president”. Tariffs power in the US vested in Congress, and Congress created laws which regulate it. What Trump is doing is outside of his legal powers, regardless to some conceptual reasoning why countries can do retaliation tariffs.

closewith 1y ago

I think this is overly optimistic, as PL is still wildly popular and the situation could easily reverse over the course of the next two elections. Not to mention nobody in Brazilian politics is lily white and a mature democracy would not be lead by Lula.

DanielHB 1y ago

Although the parallels are similar there is one big difference between US and Brazil political system: Dual-party system. Trump bullied the republican party and purged anyone who is not loyal to him, and through his party he got a good chunk of the congress to be subservient to him. Brazil has multiple parties and therefor Bolsonaro couldn't worm his way into having major legislative and judiciary power as well. One big thing in Brazil is that the voting process is conducted in two phases: Phase 1 all candidates get votes, if no one got >50% of the votes then there is a Phase 2 where only the top 2 candidates can be voted on. So voting for a 3rd party on Phase 1 is not detrimental and the main parties need to make coalitions. So it works a bit like you see in parliamentary systems, but once in power it is quite common for the coalitions to fade away or congress-people to vote against the coalition stalemating the legislative and reforms. It is also why there is so much corruption in Brazil's congress, vote-buying can be achieved on an individual-level instead of a party-level. Also please don't praise the current Brazilian president, he is part of the problem and making the country politics even more like the US (increasing polarization through populist movements). He is just doing it from the left side of the political spectrum. He is just not insane wannabe-dictator like Bolsonaro. The Trump playbook didn't work in Brazil because of the way the systems and institutions are set up. But these differences have both upsides and downsides.

programmertote 1y ago
Thank you for sharing the insights. I always wonder how multi-party system would work and seems like it's not all rose-y like I thought they are... Side note, the individual-level vote buying also happens in the US system unfortunately.
- DanielHB 1y ago
  It looks very weird if a congress-person in the US votes against the party, isn't it?. In Brazil it is not that unnusual. In Brazil vote-buying happens through suit-cases full of dollars, in the US it happens through lobbying and promises of cushy jobs after you leave congress. Both are bad but suit-cases are much worse. This is also why it is so hard to actually enact reforms in Brazil, literally impossible to pass any big reforms without bribing a lot of people. Some politicians will actively vote against passing bills just because they didn't get a kickback.

komali2 1y ago

> Then the insurrection failed, the ex-president faced a criminal investigation and prosecutors put him on trial for plotting a coup. The Americans impeached this president once and nothing happened, and then also didn't they find him guilty of a ton of other crimes, and nothing happened? Do Americans have optimism that Trump won't be their first dictator for life and will actually face consequences for his crimes? As for me I'm so confident that Trump is America's last president that I'm trying to find ways to put money on it.

carefulfungi 1y ago
> impeached this president ~once~ twice. With two acquittals in the Senate.
darksaints 1y ago
I'm with you. America is already a failed state, a dead man walking, and people are still pretending like it can be fixed. There's only one way this country can be saved and, regardless of the process to get there, it would culminate in a new constitution.
- cagey 1y ago
  > There's only one way this country can be saved and, regardless of the process to get there, it would culminate in a new constitution. NYT op-ed from 8/14 agreeing: "Abolish the Senate. End the Electoral College. Pack the Court. Why the left can’t win without a new Constitution." https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/14/opinion/trump-democracy-test-left.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/14/opinion/trump-democracy-t... https://archive.is/uNIPL https://archive.is/uNIPL
dragonwriter 1y ago
> The Americans impeached this president once and nothing happened, Twice; there have been four impeachments of US Presidents, two of which were of Donald Trump during his previous term. > Do Americans have optimism that Trump won't be their first dictator for life and will actually face consequences for his crimes? I'm pretty confident that he WILL be a somewhat [0] dictatorial leader for life, but I think there are pretty good odds that this does not involve exceeding the maximum term limit set by the 22nd Amendment. [0] somewhat only in that I don't think the total destruction of institutions that would make it an absolute dictatorship rather than an aspirational one that still struggles against things like courts that, while mostly tame, still give some effect to Constitutional rights and limits is likely to be completed before Trump is, though not for lack of trying.

sizeofchar 1y ago

I am sorry, but this article is a bag of lies. It is just buying and broadcasting the official story from human rights violator Justice Alexandre de Morais, who is persecuting opposition and making up trials as Moscow did in the great purges.

nickserv 1y ago

A big difference between Brazil and the USA is that until 1985, Brazil was a dictatorship. The kind that "disappears" and tortures journalists and political opponents. So lots of people still alive today remember those days and understand the danger of politicians like Bolsonaro. People like the current president Lula, who was imprisoned during the dictatorship. The USA on the other hand, has never had a dictatorship in living memory. It's even debatable whether pre-independence it was a dictatorship, and in any case it is so far removed from the present that it has no impact on everyday life. Maybe for this reason there is a feeling of "it can't happen here". An exceptional ism that is not unwarranted given the incredible social and economic progress made. But this attitude is perhaps the most dangerous one can have towards fascism.

DanielHB 1y ago
You overestimate how much people remember of the dictatorship, my parents were very much pro-Bolsonaro and they lived through the dictatorship. Fact is for most of the population, especially the poorest, the dictatorship was not as oppressive directly against them. The secret police was going after intellectuals and universities. And censoring media of course. The average person only cared because the dictatorship was running the country economy into the ground.
- nickserv 1y ago
  This is true as well, and in fact not uncommon for a dictatorship to have decent support as long as the economy is good. See: China (although unlike Brazil I have no direct experience there). It's also a well worn play book at this point to have people vote against their interests when given some enemy: religious or ethnic minorities, atheists, immigrants, a foreign power, etc... In any case I completely agree with all your points. Just that the situation is even more dangerous when the society has no experience dealing with dictators.
- watwut 1y ago
  Yes. People in postcommunist coutries are always the first to give up on democracy. While they want own freedom, they tend to be bothered by freedom of others and many have nostalgia for "order". They see corruption as an opportunity and autocracy facilitates that.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

exabrial 1y ago

Right, so lets talk about the government banning speech they dont like? Both countries do it: a. trump trying to ban burning of american flags b. brazil banning elon musk tweets The difference is a. will not stand up in court and is protected free speech, while b. will never be overturned.

karmakurtisaani 1y ago
If a. goes to SC these days, there is no telling how the ruling would go.
vitorgrs 1y ago
Which Elon Musk tweets got banned?

dakial1 1y ago

Make no mistake here, Brazil is just not in the same situation as the US because Bolsonaro couldn't manage to equip the Superior Court with a majority of loyalists. Also Alexandre de Moraes is crossing the line of his role responsibility (and power) a lot to go after everyone in Bolsonaro's gang. So it is not quite a democracy, is just that Bolsonaro has stronger enemies than Trump. And this brings the question if to fight someone who does not care about the rules, you must become them and break the rules as well.

matheusmoreira 1y ago
> Also Alexandre de Moraes is crossing the line of his role responsibility (and power) a lot to go after everyone in Bolsonaro's gang. That's a serious understatement. The supreme court has usurped the functions of the entire government. These unelected judge-kings regularly walk all over our elected representatives in the legislative and executive branches of the government with absolute impunity. They relativize the constitution, make up laws as they go along and generally rule the country however they see fit. They are so brazen as to raise taxes. The only people who can impeach them are politicians who can't afford to make enemies out of the guys with the power to judge them for corruption. Watching some journalist preach about "democratic maturity" in the context of Brazil is just disgusting and reprehensible. Whatever people think of Trump, he's the only one who ever did a thing about this depressing situation so I'll forever thank him for it.