6 ms·

That's why I like Apple's vertical integration. If something breaks it's 100% their fault that they need to make right to the consumer, they can't tell you to G

That's why I like Apple's vertical integration. If something breaks it's 100% their fault that they need to make right to the consumer, they can't tell you to GTFO and go blame someone else to escape responsibility.

jamesnorden 1y ago
Then can, and will, blame the consumer until forced to acknowledge it, sometimes by a class action lawsuit, like they have many times in the past.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
taneliv 1y ago
You can surely buy integrated non-Apple systems like laptops, desktops and servers where the vendor fully bears the responsibility for correct system function. DIY systems are perhaps the ones most affected by this, but I don't think Apple caters at all to that segment.
- wat10000 1y ago
  Right, Dell or Lenovo can no more tell their customer "not our problem, talk to Intel" than Toyota can say, "not our problem, talk to Takata." If you buy a motherboard and buy a CPU and put them together, only then do you get the opportunity to play these games.
folsom 1y ago
Yeah, next thing you know AMD will tell consumers they are holding it wrong.
bitmasher9 1y ago
It is nice to be able to replace your cpu, or install new memory, or use expansion slots. Not to mention being able to pick hardware that isn’t locked to a single operating system. For me that’s well worth being liable for installation issues.
- lazide 1y ago
  It doesn’t sound like the concerns are necessarily installation related?
- gwbas1c 1y ago
  I had one of the giant Mac Pros from 2007, and I was able to change drives, RAM, and even replace the included graphics card when it fried. I even fixed my first Macbook pro from 2006. My more recent Macbooks haven't needed repair before the OS was end-of-life. Personally, I don't miss it, as I'm 100% laptop. If I was into PC gaming, I'd probably have a desktop, but I prefer the simplicity of consoles. FWIW: Most people who buy laptops are buying at a price point where it's "not worth it" to repair.
  - wat10000 1y ago
    The current Mac Pro offers upgradeable storage, and PCIe slots (but they don't support video cards). The CPU and RAM can no longer be upgraded. It's also tremendously expensive, $7,000 for the base model. (That 2007 model started at $2,200!) I miss it a little. I have a 16GB MacBook Pro that I wouldn't mind adding more RAM to. But I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff for better performance, size, and power consumption.
loloquwowndueo 1y ago
Four words for you: “You’re holding it wrong”
redleader55 1y ago
> they can't tell you to GTFO and go blame someone else to escape responsibility That sounds good in theory, but if it were true people like Louis Rossman who repair Apple phones and laptops and talk about Apple's treatment of customers wouldn't have millions of followers on YouTube.
sofixa 1y ago
Like the butterfly keyboard, which required a lawsuit for Apple to agree was defective and offer repairs for free in the first 4 years after buying it?
Ygg2 1y ago
> If something breaks it's 100% their fault that they need to make right "You're holding it wrong", Steve Jobs to a customer that covered their invisible antenna.
- branko_d 1y ago
  Most other brands had very similar problems (including my trusty Nokia at the time). You can still attenuate antennae on modern phones if you hold it just right. It's just a matter of physics. Here is what Nokia N97 does when you "hold it wrong": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shR4jITiG48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shR4jITiG48
  - Ygg2 1y ago
    That's not as bad as Apple's. https://archive.is/20240401152946/https://www.wired.com/2010/06/iphone-4-holding-it-wrong/ https://archive.is/20240401152946/https://www.wired.com/2010...
mrheosuper 1y ago
Pretty sure they blamed the user holding their iphone wrong.
- nashashmi 1y ago
  To Be fair, you are not supposed to hold in the one place where it disconnects
  - loloquwowndueo 1y ago
    To be fair, it should not disconnect if you hold it in a place that’s not clearly marked “it will disconnect if you touch here”. :)
  - fwip 1y ago
    Was there anything in the product manual or packaging to tell the user this?
microtonal 1y ago
You mean like the butterfly keyboard in my MacBook Pro 2016, which could be destroyed by a few specs of dust, and took years for Apple to acknowledge?
- trillic 1y ago
  or the iPhone 4 Steve Jobs: "You're holding it wrong"
  - tempest_ 1y ago
    Or the generation that where the graphics cards were de-soldering themselves
    - glitchc 1y ago
      I still have a mid-2010 Macbook Pro collecting dust somewhere.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- rwmj 1y ago
  Or the Apple iBook G3 which had faulty soldering. (This affected mine.) Apple never acknowledged it.
- mft_ 1y ago
  ...or the widespread issue with the screen ribbon connector on the first generation of touchbar Macbook Pros (aka "Flexgate") which despite apparently identical symptoms and failure modes was fixed for free on the 13" model, but not on the 15" model? (At least, this was the outcome when I took mine to the Apple Store...)
- sroussey 1y ago
  Funny, but I had that butterfly keyboard for many years (until I got an M2) and never had a problem. It’s no mechanical keyboard to the fingers, but it worked fine.
throwaway48476 1y ago
Like the flex connector on the display that was too short and cracked when you closed the lid?
nashashmi 1y ago
Apple sells the hardware. That is why they are responsible. If dell sold the hardware , dell would be responsible . AMD does not sell the motherboard. The motherboard sells the CPU. So motherboard is responsible. But the relevance here is CPU is burning out because it is being plugged in by the end user. And the manufacturer is blaming the motherboard for their cpu burning. Maybe the cpu should be protective?
- nashashmi 1y ago
  Looks like the motherboard might be sending more voltage than allowed causing the CPU to burn. So it is the motherboard's fault.
hu3 1y ago
Maybe this will open your eyes. Dell support has flown a repair guy to my place with spare hardware pieces and fixed my pc in front of me. In my office. And I was partially to blame for the problem (I over clocked the CPU). I told them I did oc the CPU, they changed motherboard and processor anyways. For free. So not only there are other verticals, but they are better.
- runjake 1y ago
  We just had a similar oopsie (water ingress) happen with a very expensive Dell server. We were upfront about what happened and wanted to pay for service. But in the end, they deployed a tech to repair it under warranty anyway. That was a huge boost for Dell in my mind.
  - hu3 1y ago
    Yeah their warranty is legendary. In my case, flying someone to my place alone was more expensive than the parts they replaced.
- Spooky23 1y ago
  All of these companies have good and bad stories. I’ve been in the IT biz for a long time and have lots of stories of heroics and villainy. I can think of a bad one where a significant number of laptops and 1st party docking stations were deployed. There was an issue where in certain scenarios plugging into the dock would brick the dock. It affected ~5% of the population in 90 days. Vendor response: fuck you. One of the interns working on desktop support at the org figured out that certain laptop serial number ranges were affected. She then popped it open and found what turned out to be a counterfeit chip. Flying monkeys were released and the CEO of the vendor got a call. End result: ~$40-50M redeployment of everything, eaten by the vendor. If they had been accountable from the beginning, they likely would have recalled $3-5M of devices and spent $300-500k on deployment. On the flip, I remember one scenario where an off warranty device failed before its replacement was ready (and the replacement was another vendor). The part wasn’t available locally, and the account exec ditched a conference in Chicago, picked up the part from a depot in Indiana and drove it to Massachusetts overnight, with a CE waiting for it in the lot.
atwrk 1y ago
Apple is the only company where I ever had to involve a lawyer to exercise my consumer rights (in Germany). They made notebooks with a design flaw that resulted in broken display cables from opening and closing the devices. My notebook broke 3 times, and at the third time I have the right to get my money back, which they refused (before involving said lawyer).
izacus 1y ago
Who asked you to drop an Apple ad in a completely unrelated topic?
anvuong 1y ago
Antenna gate? Bend gate? Butterfly keyboard? This kind of Apple fanboyism is why I hate Apple, even though I really enjoy using their Macs at work.
hangonhn 1y ago
Did you forget the iPhone 4 antenna debacle? Not only was the design problematic but Apple's gaslighting of everyone was terrible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna Or what about the butterfly keyboard issue? https://www.pcmag.com/news/apple-finally-begins-distributing-payments-from-butterfly-keyboard-settlement https://www.pcmag.com/news/apple-finally-begins-distributing.... I can't believe I had to periodically use compressed air to get my keyboard working again. Again, they kept denying it was an issue.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
brokenmachine 1y ago
Check out Louis Rossmann's youtube channel for how well that logic works out. God, there's SO many examples of Apple being terrible.

jamesnorden 1y ago

Then can, and will, blame the consumer until forced to acknowledge it, sometimes by a class action lawsuit, like they have many times in the past.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

taneliv 1y ago

You can surely buy integrated non-Apple systems like laptops, desktops and servers where the vendor fully bears the responsibility for correct system function. DIY systems are perhaps the ones most affected by this, but I don't think Apple caters at all to that segment.

wat10000 1y ago
Right, Dell or Lenovo can no more tell their customer "not our problem, talk to Intel" than Toyota can say, "not our problem, talk to Takata." If you buy a motherboard and buy a CPU and put them together, only then do you get the opportunity to play these games.

folsom 1y ago

Yeah, next thing you know AMD will tell consumers they are holding it wrong.

bitmasher9 1y ago

It is nice to be able to replace your cpu, or install new memory, or use expansion slots. Not to mention being able to pick hardware that isn’t locked to a single operating system. For me that’s well worth being liable for installation issues.

lazide 1y ago
It doesn’t sound like the concerns are necessarily installation related?
gwbas1c 1y ago
I had one of the giant Mac Pros from 2007, and I was able to change drives, RAM, and even replace the included graphics card when it fried. I even fixed my first Macbook pro from 2006. My more recent Macbooks haven't needed repair before the OS was end-of-life. Personally, I don't miss it, as I'm 100% laptop. If I was into PC gaming, I'd probably have a desktop, but I prefer the simplicity of consoles. FWIW: Most people who buy laptops are buying at a price point where it's "not worth it" to repair.
- wat10000 1y ago
  The current Mac Pro offers upgradeable storage, and PCIe slots (but they don't support video cards). The CPU and RAM can no longer be upgraded. It's also tremendously expensive, $7,000 for the base model. (That 2007 model started at $2,200!) I miss it a little. I have a 16GB MacBook Pro that I wouldn't mind adding more RAM to. But I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff for better performance, size, and power consumption.

loloquwowndueo 1y ago

Four words for you: “You’re holding it wrong”

redleader55 1y ago

> they can't tell you to GTFO and go blame someone else to escape responsibility That sounds good in theory, but if it were true people like Louis Rossman who repair Apple phones and laptops and talk about Apple's treatment of customers wouldn't have millions of followers on YouTube.

sofixa 1y ago

Like the butterfly keyboard, which required a lawsuit for Apple to agree was defective and offer repairs for free in the first 4 years after buying it?

Ygg2 1y ago

> If something breaks it's 100% their fault that they need to make right "You're holding it wrong", Steve Jobs to a customer that covered their invisible antenna.

branko_d 1y ago
Most other brands had very similar problems (including my trusty Nokia at the time). You can still attenuate antennae on modern phones if you hold it just right. It's just a matter of physics. Here is what Nokia N97 does when you "hold it wrong": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shR4jITiG48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shR4jITiG48
- Ygg2 1y ago
  That's not as bad as Apple's. https://archive.is/20240401152946/https://www.wired.com/2010/06/iphone-4-holding-it-wrong/ https://archive.is/20240401152946/https://www.wired.com/2010...

mrheosuper 1y ago

Pretty sure they blamed the user holding their iphone wrong.

nashashmi 1y ago
To Be fair, you are not supposed to hold in the one place where it disconnects
- loloquwowndueo 1y ago
  To be fair, it should not disconnect if you hold it in a place that’s not clearly marked “it will disconnect if you touch here”. :)
- fwip 1y ago
  Was there anything in the product manual or packaging to tell the user this?

microtonal 1y ago

You mean like the butterfly keyboard in my MacBook Pro 2016, which could be destroyed by a few specs of dust, and took years for Apple to acknowledge?

trillic 1y ago
or the iPhone 4 Steve Jobs: "You're holding it wrong"
- tempest_ 1y ago
  Or the generation that where the graphics cards were de-soldering themselves
  - glitchc 1y ago
    I still have a mid-2010 Macbook Pro collecting dust somewhere.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
rwmj 1y ago
Or the Apple iBook G3 which had faulty soldering. (This affected mine.) Apple never acknowledged it.
mft_ 1y ago
...or the widespread issue with the screen ribbon connector on the first generation of touchbar Macbook Pros (aka "Flexgate") which despite apparently identical symptoms and failure modes was fixed for free on the 13" model, but not on the 15" model? (At least, this was the outcome when I took mine to the Apple Store...)
sroussey 1y ago
Funny, but I had that butterfly keyboard for many years (until I got an M2) and never had a problem. It’s no mechanical keyboard to the fingers, but it worked fine.

throwaway48476 1y ago

Like the flex connector on the display that was too short and cracked when you closed the lid?

nashashmi 1y ago

Apple sells the hardware. That is why they are responsible. If dell sold the hardware , dell would be responsible . AMD does not sell the motherboard. The motherboard sells the CPU. So motherboard is responsible. But the relevance here is CPU is burning out because it is being plugged in by the end user. And the manufacturer is blaming the motherboard for their cpu burning. Maybe the cpu should be protective?

nashashmi 1y ago
Looks like the motherboard might be sending more voltage than allowed causing the CPU to burn. So it is the motherboard's fault.

hu3 1y ago

Maybe this will open your eyes. Dell support has flown a repair guy to my place with spare hardware pieces and fixed my pc in front of me. In my office. And I was partially to blame for the problem (I over clocked the CPU). I told them I did oc the CPU, they changed motherboard and processor anyways. For free. So not only there are other verticals, but they are better.

runjake 1y ago
We just had a similar oopsie (water ingress) happen with a very expensive Dell server. We were upfront about what happened and wanted to pay for service. But in the end, they deployed a tech to repair it under warranty anyway. That was a huge boost for Dell in my mind.
- hu3 1y ago
  Yeah their warranty is legendary. In my case, flying someone to my place alone was more expensive than the parts they replaced.
Spooky23 1y ago
All of these companies have good and bad stories. I’ve been in the IT biz for a long time and have lots of stories of heroics and villainy. I can think of a bad one where a significant number of laptops and 1st party docking stations were deployed. There was an issue where in certain scenarios plugging into the dock would brick the dock. It affected ~5% of the population in 90 days. Vendor response: fuck you. One of the interns working on desktop support at the org figured out that certain laptop serial number ranges were affected. She then popped it open and found what turned out to be a counterfeit chip. Flying monkeys were released and the CEO of the vendor got a call. End result: ~$40-50M redeployment of everything, eaten by the vendor. If they had been accountable from the beginning, they likely would have recalled $3-5M of devices and spent $300-500k on deployment. On the flip, I remember one scenario where an off warranty device failed before its replacement was ready (and the replacement was another vendor). The part wasn’t available locally, and the account exec ditched a conference in Chicago, picked up the part from a depot in Indiana and drove it to Massachusetts overnight, with a CE waiting for it in the lot.

atwrk 1y ago

Apple is the only company where I ever had to involve a lawyer to exercise my consumer rights (in Germany). They made notebooks with a design flaw that resulted in broken display cables from opening and closing the devices. My notebook broke 3 times, and at the third time I have the right to get my money back, which they refused (before involving said lawyer).

izacus 1y ago

Who asked you to drop an Apple ad in a completely unrelated topic?

anvuong 1y ago

Antenna gate? Bend gate? Butterfly keyboard? This kind of Apple fanboyism is why I hate Apple, even though I really enjoy using their Macs at work.

hangonhn 1y ago

Did you forget the iPhone 4 antenna debacle? Not only was the design problematic but Apple's gaslighting of everyone was terrible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna Or what about the butterfly keyboard issue? https://www.pcmag.com/news/apple-finally-begins-distributing-payments-from-butterfly-keyboard-settlement https://www.pcmag.com/news/apple-finally-begins-distributing.... I can't believe I had to periodically use compressed air to get my keyboard working again. Again, they kept denying it was an issue.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

brokenmachine 1y ago

Check out Louis Rossmann's youtube channel for how well that logic works out. God, there's SO many examples of Apple being terrible.