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The existing giro system is the real Paypal competitor. Most Europeans had access to Paypal-style money transfers before they had email. Merchants probably want

The existing giro system is the real Paypal competitor. Most Europeans had access to Paypal-style money transfers before they had email. Merchants probably want to rely on another party to maintain their integration, but there is no real need for another centralized service similar to Paypal. (The U.S. really is an outlier among developed nations in that its giro system is not widely used, and many residents would not even know how to access it. Hence Paypal's network effect can offer value there. Europe is very different.)

red_trumpet 1y ago
> Most Europeans had access to Paypal-style money transfers before they had email. Bank transfers were not instant though, they usually took a work day. This is changing with the introduction of instant transfers, which become mandatory to support this year, and are also not allowed to be more expensive since this year also.
- ta12653421 1y ago
  But the merchant got a signal that the money is on the way, so it was quick enough for them to sent out the package.
alistairSH 1y ago
The U.S. really is an outlier among developed nations in that its giro system is not widely used I wasn't even aware such a thing existed? Or do you mean Zelle, which seems to be some sort of hybrid system... It's not quite a giro system as found in most of EU, more like "PayPal, but built by BofA and CapOne"
- fweimer 1y ago
  I don't do much banking in the U.S. system, but I'm assuming that ACH transfers get you pretty close to a giro system. Apparently, they are quite slow by SEPA's standards.
  - alistairSH 1y ago
    Very slow. And not something consumers use to pay each other. If I need to pay a friend, it’s Venmo or PayPal in the US. In theory Zelle too, but I don’t know anybody who uses it.
pbmonster 1y ago
> The existing giro system is the real Paypal competitor. Most Europeans had access to Paypal-style money transfers before they had email. Not at all, not even close! In most cases, that's wrong even today. Want to sell something online? A book you wrote, a game you made? There's no way for people to pay you via giro and automatically receiving the good on the page where the payment process was initiated. Giro is not instant, and almost no bank will offer an API that signals that a specific customer has transferred funds successfully. It always takes hours, and the confirmation process is almost always only semi-automatic for the seller. Visa/MasterCard/PayPal/Twint/Tikkie/Wero have and will provide actual value. Giro was nice 15 years ago, but hasn't kept up. And even for money transfers between two private individuals, giro is the inferior system - mainly because Euro banks fail at UX/UI. I don't know a single bank that offers an "address book" in their online banking app/website. If you want to send someone money, you better remember their IBAN yourself. And because the system comes with a degree of anonymity, you can't even send people money back! Their IBAN is not part of the metadata of an incoming transfer, the only way to send money back is to contact that person and have them send their IBAN.
- rcbdev 1y ago
  Austria has the state-run EPS system. It's very ubiquitous here, I use it for most online payments.
- tnolet 1y ago
  ideal will handle that. But it’s only in NL.
  - kuschku 1y ago
    ideal is being shut down, and merged with German GiroGo/PayDirekt and Danish Dankort into Wero, which is what this entire subthread is about.
- pantalaimon 1y ago
  > Giro is not instant, and almost no bank will offer an API that signals that a specific customer has transferred funds successfully. And because of that we have leeches like Sofortüberweisung. They basically proxy the web interface of your bank and you'll give them full access to your account, so they do the transaction for you by scraping your banks web interface (and your transaction history) and report success to the vendor.
foxglacier 1y ago
For merchants selling stuff internationally on the internet, none of those local systems are any use. You pretty much need to use Paypal or similar - or even wire transfers if you don't mind the delay and inconvenience to the customer.
mastermage 1y ago
Wero is actually built to sunset Giro in the EU. Its built on top of Giro as to leverage the well working network but gives more convenience.
- qznc 1y ago
  This is the first time I hear of „sunset“. Afaik it just is a layer on top and that’s it.
  - mastermage 1y ago
    It's in the first paragraph on Wikipedia. Although I know that Wikipedia isn't always 100% correct so take that with a grain of salt. Quote: "Wero is a European mobile payment system that is intended to replace Giropay in Germany, Paylib in France,[1] Payconiq in Belgium[2] and Luxembourg, and iDEAL in the Netherlands."
    - qznc 1y ago
      You are right. I was thinking about "SEPA" (more precisely "SEPA Instant") which is the layer WERO builds on.

red_trumpet 1y ago

> Most Europeans had access to Paypal-style money transfers before they had email. Bank transfers were not instant though, they usually took a work day. This is changing with the introduction of instant transfers, which become mandatory to support this year, and are also not allowed to be more expensive since this year also.

ta12653421 1y ago
But the merchant got a signal that the money is on the way, so it was quick enough for them to sent out the package.

alistairSH 1y ago

The U.S. really is an outlier among developed nations in that its giro system is not widely used I wasn't even aware such a thing existed? Or do you mean Zelle, which seems to be some sort of hybrid system... It's not quite a giro system as found in most of EU, more like "PayPal, but built by BofA and CapOne"

fweimer 1y ago
I don't do much banking in the U.S. system, but I'm assuming that ACH transfers get you pretty close to a giro system. Apparently, they are quite slow by SEPA's standards.
- alistairSH 1y ago
  Very slow. And not something consumers use to pay each other. If I need to pay a friend, it’s Venmo or PayPal in the US. In theory Zelle too, but I don’t know anybody who uses it.

pbmonster 1y ago

> The existing giro system is the real Paypal competitor. Most Europeans had access to Paypal-style money transfers before they had email. Not at all, not even close! In most cases, that's wrong even today. Want to sell something online? A book you wrote, a game you made? There's no way for people to pay you via giro and automatically receiving the good on the page where the payment process was initiated. Giro is not instant, and almost no bank will offer an API that signals that a specific customer has transferred funds successfully. It always takes hours, and the confirmation process is almost always only semi-automatic for the seller. Visa/MasterCard/PayPal/Twint/Tikkie/Wero have and will provide actual value. Giro was nice 15 years ago, but hasn't kept up. And even for money transfers between two private individuals, giro is the inferior system - mainly because Euro banks fail at UX/UI. I don't know a single bank that offers an "address book" in their online banking app/website. If you want to send someone money, you better remember their IBAN yourself. And because the system comes with a degree of anonymity, you can't even send people money back! Their IBAN is not part of the metadata of an incoming transfer, the only way to send money back is to contact that person and have them send their IBAN.

rcbdev 1y ago
Austria has the state-run EPS system. It's very ubiquitous here, I use it for most online payments.
tnolet 1y ago
ideal will handle that. But it’s only in NL.
- kuschku 1y ago
  ideal is being shut down, and merged with German GiroGo/PayDirekt and Danish Dankort into Wero, which is what this entire subthread is about.
pantalaimon 1y ago
> Giro is not instant, and almost no bank will offer an API that signals that a specific customer has transferred funds successfully. And because of that we have leeches like Sofortüberweisung. They basically proxy the web interface of your bank and you'll give them full access to your account, so they do the transaction for you by scraping your banks web interface (and your transaction history) and report success to the vendor.

foxglacier 1y ago

For merchants selling stuff internationally on the internet, none of those local systems are any use. You pretty much need to use Paypal or similar - or even wire transfers if you don't mind the delay and inconvenience to the customer.

mastermage 1y ago

Wero is actually built to sunset Giro in the EU. Its built on top of Giro as to leverage the well working network but gives more convenience.

qznc 1y ago
This is the first time I hear of „sunset“. Afaik it just is a layer on top and that’s it.
- mastermage 1y ago
  It's in the first paragraph on Wikipedia. Although I know that Wikipedia isn't always 100% correct so take that with a grain of salt. Quote: "Wero is a European mobile payment system that is intended to replace Giropay in Germany, Paylib in France,[1] Payconiq in Belgium[2] and Luxembourg, and iDEAL in the Netherlands."
  - qznc 1y ago
    You are right. I was thinking about "SEPA" (more precisely "SEPA Instant") which is the layer WERO builds on.