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I don't agree that Python can be saved by a type checker. The language itself is flawed irreversibly, as well as its ecosystem. It's a big big mess. Can't build

I don't agree that Python can be saved by a type checker. The language itself is flawed irreversibly, as well as its ecosystem. It's a big big mess. Can't build reliable software in Python.

dkdcio 1y ago
you can and this is a juvenile position. there is reliable software in any language as popular and widespread as Python. every language is flawed
- IshKebab 1y ago
  > every language is flawed But not equally flawed. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/dLJv2CoRCgeC2mPgj/the-fallacy-of-gray https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/dLJv2CoRCgeC2mPgj/the-fallac...
grep_it 1y ago
Is this rage-bait? A language alone doesn't dictate reliability. There are tons of large scale systems out there running on Python. As for the language being, "flawed irreversibly", I'd be curious to hear you expand on that with examples.
- nicce 1y ago
  All programming languages are Turing complete and you can arque with that. But you reach similar results with varying pre-knowledge and effort. Sometimes it is even impossible. All programs can be bug-free but most are not, if we reverse the argument.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  > A language alone doesn't dictate reliability. Nobody would claim that. But are you trying to say that the language has no effect on reliability? Because that's obviously nonsense. Language choice has some effect on reliability, and I would say Python's effect is mediocre-to-bad. Depending on if you use Pyright. Not too bad if you do. Pretty awful if you don't.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ninetyninenine 1y ago
It can't be 100% saved, but like the OP said it's 80% saved. It's not true you can't build reliable software in python. People have. There's proof of it everywhere. Tons of examples of reliable software written in python which is not the safest language. I think the real thing here is more of a skill issue. You don't know how to build reliable software in a language that doesn't have full type coverage. That's just your lack of ability. I'm not trying to be insulting here. Just stating the logic: A. You claim python can't build reliable software. B. Reliable Software for python actually exists, therefore your claim is incorrect C. You therefore must not have experience with building any software with python and must have your hand held and be baby-sitted by rusts type checker. Just spitting facts.
- koakuma-chan 1y ago
  If you know some secret behind building reliable software in a programming language without types, with nulls, and with runtime exceptions, I'm all ears. I admit that a blanket statement "can't build reliable software" is going overboard, but the intention was to be dramatic, not factually correct. You can probably build reliable software in Python if you write everything from scratch, but I wouldn't want to do that to myself. I would rather use a programming language that has a type system, etc, and a better cultured ecosystem.
  - ninetyninenine 1y ago
    I prefer types too. But I can build reliable software without types as well. Many people can. This isn’t secret stuff that only I can do. There are thousands and thousands of reliable software built on Python, ruby and JavaScript.
    - mixmastamyk 1y ago
      Indeed, I write very reliable Python every day. A lot faster than the Rust straitjacket too. We had sentry installed so I know exactly how many exceptions were happening, rare to zero. Lots of tests/constraints on the database as well. That said I like a nice tight straitjacket at other times. Just not every day. ;-). P.S. Python doesn’t have the billion-dollar-mistake with nulls. You have to purposely set a variable to None.
dangus 1y ago
lol, Instagram is written in Python.
- super_flanker 1y ago
  What exactly? I work at Instagram.
  - dangus 1y ago
    I don’t work at Instagram so I can only go off of what I found online: https://www.pythonpool.com/how-instagram-is-using-django-and-python/ https://www.pythonpool.com/how-instagram-is-using-django-and... https://python.plainenglish.io/how-instagram-uses-python-scaling-the-worlds-largest-django-application-1fb274fdf3d6 https://python.plainenglish.io/how-instagram-uses-python-sca...

I don't agree that Python can be saved by a type checker. The language itself is flawed irreversibly, as well as its ecosystem. It's a big big mess. Can't build reliable software in Python.

dkdcio 1y ago

you can and this is a juvenile position. there is reliable software in any language as popular and widespread as Python. every language is flawed

IshKebab 1y ago
> every language is flawed But not equally flawed. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/dLJv2CoRCgeC2mPgj/the-fallacy-of-gray https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/dLJv2CoRCgeC2mPgj/the-fallac...

grep_it 1y ago

Is this rage-bait? A language alone doesn't dictate reliability. There are tons of large scale systems out there running on Python. As for the language being, "flawed irreversibly", I'd be curious to hear you expand on that with examples.

nicce 1y ago
All programming languages are Turing complete and you can arque with that. But you reach similar results with varying pre-knowledge and effort. Sometimes it is even impossible. All programs can be bug-free but most are not, if we reverse the argument.
IshKebab 1y ago
> A language alone doesn't dictate reliability. Nobody would claim that. But are you trying to say that the language has no effect on reliability? Because that's obviously nonsense. Language choice has some effect on reliability, and I would say Python's effect is mediocre-to-bad. Depending on if you use Pyright. Not too bad if you do. Pretty awful if you don't.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ninetyninenine 1y ago

It can't be 100% saved, but like the OP said it's 80% saved. It's not true you can't build reliable software in python. People have. There's proof of it everywhere. Tons of examples of reliable software written in python which is not the safest language. I think the real thing here is more of a skill issue. You don't know how to build reliable software in a language that doesn't have full type coverage. That's just your lack of ability. I'm not trying to be insulting here. Just stating the logic: A. You claim python can't build reliable software. B. Reliable Software for python actually exists, therefore your claim is incorrect C. You therefore must not have experience with building any software with python and must have your hand held and be baby-sitted by rusts type checker. Just spitting facts.

koakuma-chan 1y ago
If you know some secret behind building reliable software in a programming language without types, with nulls, and with runtime exceptions, I'm all ears. I admit that a blanket statement "can't build reliable software" is going overboard, but the intention was to be dramatic, not factually correct. You can probably build reliable software in Python if you write everything from scratch, but I wouldn't want to do that to myself. I would rather use a programming language that has a type system, etc, and a better cultured ecosystem.
- ninetyninenine 1y ago
  I prefer types too. But I can build reliable software without types as well. Many people can. This isn’t secret stuff that only I can do. There are thousands and thousands of reliable software built on Python, ruby and JavaScript.
  - mixmastamyk 1y ago
    Indeed, I write very reliable Python every day. A lot faster than the Rust straitjacket too. We had sentry installed so I know exactly how many exceptions were happening, rare to zero. Lots of tests/constraints on the database as well. That said I like a nice tight straitjacket at other times. Just not every day. ;-). P.S. Python doesn’t have the billion-dollar-mistake with nulls. You have to purposely set a variable to None.

dangus 1y ago

lol, Instagram is written in Python.

super_flanker 1y ago
What exactly? I work at Instagram.
- dangus 1y ago
  I don’t work at Instagram so I can only go off of what I found online: https://www.pythonpool.com/how-instagram-is-using-django-and-python/ https://www.pythonpool.com/how-instagram-is-using-django-and... https://python.plainenglish.io/how-instagram-uses-python-scaling-the-worlds-largest-django-application-1fb274fdf3d6 https://python.plainenglish.io/how-instagram-uses-python-sca...