5 ms·

F-35 is a boondoggle. $200M for one fighter plane is insane. If the USA ever had to go to war with this weapon, a huge number of them would be offline at any

by efitz 1y ago

F-35 is a boondoggle. $200M for one fighter plane is insane. If the USA ever had to go to war with this weapon, a huge number of them would be offline at any given time, and every single airframe loss would cause a huge dent in overall combat power. I don’t understand why our military and political leaders keep trying to buy ridiculously overpriced Swiss Army knife weapons (lots of flexibility but great at nothing) instead of mass producing combat knives (only good for one thing but great at it and lots of them).

josefresco 1y ago
The Air Force's F-35A variant has an "average" flyaway cost of $82.5 million for the jet's 15th, 16th and 17th production lots. https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/newest-f-35-f-15ex-contracts-are-set-but-how-much-do-they-cost-exclusive/ https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/newest-f-35-f-15ex-contr... The F-35 base model is around $80 million, rising to the highest known price of $109 million per unit for the F-35B vertical takeoff and landing variant. And then there's this: "The flyaway cost for the F-15EX Eagle II is approximately $90 million for each aircraft in the program’s second production lot, about $7.5 million more than the newest price for an F-35A"
- adastra22 1y ago
  F-35 is both the cheapest and most effective vehicle we have access to.
scottLobster 1y ago
You sure about that? You should look at the F-35's performance in Israeli hands in their recent strikes on Iran.
- haberman 1y ago
  For me, that was a moment when I realized that the received wisdom about military things can be just completely wrong. I had considered myself to be reasonably informed about the F-35, and how "everyone knows" it's a boondoggle. I think this started with a long-form article I read in 2013, "How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane": https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fd-how-the-u-s-and-its-allies-got-stuck-with-the-worlds-worst-new-warplane-5c95d45f86a5 https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fd-how-the-u-s-and-its-alli... Here is the HN discussion at the time, full of confident assertions that the F-35 is useless: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6211029 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6211029 Fast forward to this year, when Israel's F-35s operated over Iran with total impunity. Not a single plane lost AFAIK.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Iran isn’t really a near peer adversary, however. But I guess that is the F35’s target market? Do you expect it would do as well over Ukraine? Or if there was a spat with China over Taiwan (for example)? It is possible for both things to be true.
    - FridayoLeary 1y ago
      They had some pretty advanced anti aircraft systems. Also they are invisible to radar so they were truly surprised attacks coming out of the blue. So yes, it would be.
      - pear01 1y ago
        They said the same thing about the F-117 in 1999. It was shot down by a Soviet era AA. It was said once, "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed". The same applies here. Comparing bombing Iran to a conflict with China is delusional, put plainly the capabilities of the aircraft have never actually been tested against a competent peer - when it actually matters.
        TiredOfLife 1y ago
        That F-117 was because it was flying every day for months on the same route at the same time and they lucked out with radar catching the plane during the couple seconds it's bomb doors were open.
        pear01 1y ago
        Yes, and they did that because of the same arrogance alluded to in my quote.
        scottLobster 1y ago
        If the worst we have to worry about is China getting similarly lucky a few times, we'll win handily.
HPsquared 1y ago
Now they've made a lot of them, the cost per unit is actually kinda reasonable as these things go. Still way way more than drones though.
- TiredOfLife 1y ago
  But manned planes don't have to keep thousands of kilometers of fiber optics cable on board.
FridayoLeary 1y ago
the price is much lower today. Cheaper then the latest f15. I was also skeptical of the project but its really proved itself. The simple fact is that stealth abilities gives it an ubeatable advantage. It expands the capabilities of an army so much its indispensible. 5 years ago i would agreed with you but im forced to change my opinion in the face of the evidence. The f15 is going nowhere like the b52, but it cant come close to the f35.
nradov 1y ago
Nah. Parts of the F-35 program were terribly managed (procurement malpractice) but the final product largely works as promised. The whole reason it was developed starting in about 1994 was that exercises and simulations had shown that legacy strike aircraft weren't survivable against modern air defenses: that part hasn't changed, in fact the situation has gotten worse. It doesn't matter how cheap an aircraft is if it can't accomplish the mission. Perhaps someday cheap, expendable drones will be and to take over the entire mission set. But for now that concept is still science fiction.

by efitz 1y ago

josefresco 1y ago

The Air Force's F-35A variant has an "average" flyaway cost of $82.5 million for the jet's 15th, 16th and 17th production lots. https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/newest-f-35-f-15ex-contracts-are-set-but-how-much-do-they-cost-exclusive/ https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/newest-f-35-f-15ex-contr... The F-35 base model is around $80 million, rising to the highest known price of $109 million per unit for the F-35B vertical takeoff and landing variant. And then there's this: "The flyaway cost for the F-15EX Eagle II is approximately $90 million for each aircraft in the program’s second production lot, about $7.5 million more than the newest price for an F-35A"

adastra22 1y ago
F-35 is both the cheapest and most effective vehicle we have access to.

scottLobster 1y ago

You sure about that? You should look at the F-35's performance in Israeli hands in their recent strikes on Iran.

haberman 1y ago
For me, that was a moment when I realized that the received wisdom about military things can be just completely wrong. I had considered myself to be reasonably informed about the F-35, and how "everyone knows" it's a boondoggle. I think this started with a long-form article I read in 2013, "How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane": https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fd-how-the-u-s-and-its-allies-got-stuck-with-the-worlds-worst-new-warplane-5c95d45f86a5 https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fd-how-the-u-s-and-its-alli... Here is the HN discussion at the time, full of confident assertions that the F-35 is useless: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6211029 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6211029 Fast forward to this year, when Israel's F-35s operated over Iran with total impunity. Not a single plane lost AFAIK.
- lazide 1y ago
  Iran isn’t really a near peer adversary, however. But I guess that is the F35’s target market? Do you expect it would do as well over Ukraine? Or if there was a spat with China over Taiwan (for example)? It is possible for both things to be true.
  - FridayoLeary 1y ago
    They had some pretty advanced anti aircraft systems. Also they are invisible to radar so they were truly surprised attacks coming out of the blue. So yes, it would be.
    - pear01 1y ago
      They said the same thing about the F-117 in 1999. It was shot down by a Soviet era AA. It was said once, "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed". The same applies here. Comparing bombing Iran to a conflict with China is delusional, put plainly the capabilities of the aircraft have never actually been tested against a competent peer - when it actually matters.
      - TiredOfLife 1y ago
        That F-117 was because it was flying every day for months on the same route at the same time and they lucked out with radar catching the plane during the couple seconds it's bomb doors were open.
        pear01 1y ago
        Yes, and they did that because of the same arrogance alluded to in my quote.
        scottLobster 1y ago
        If the worst we have to worry about is China getting similarly lucky a few times, we'll win handily.

HPsquared 1y ago

Now they've made a lot of them, the cost per unit is actually kinda reasonable as these things go. Still way way more than drones though.

TiredOfLife 1y ago
But manned planes don't have to keep thousands of kilometers of fiber optics cable on board.

FridayoLeary 1y ago

the price is much lower today. Cheaper then the latest f15. I was also skeptical of the project but its really proved itself. The simple fact is that stealth abilities gives it an ubeatable advantage. It expands the capabilities of an army so much its indispensible. 5 years ago i would agreed with you but im forced to change my opinion in the face of the evidence. The f15 is going nowhere like the b52, but it cant come close to the f35.

nradov 1y ago

Nah. Parts of the F-35 program were terribly managed (procurement malpractice) but the final product largely works as promised. The whole reason it was developed starting in about 1994 was that exercises and simulations had shown that legacy strike aircraft weren't survivable against modern air defenses: that part hasn't changed, in fact the situation has gotten worse. It doesn't matter how cheap an aircraft is if it can't accomplish the mission. Perhaps someday cheap, expendable drones will be and to take over the entire mission set. But for now that concept is still science fiction.