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How would that work? The options for a European nuclear umbrella would be a choice between Russia (practically impossible), the UK (unlikely to be outside of US

How would that work? The options for a European nuclear umbrella would be a choice between Russia (practically impossible), the UK (unlikely to be outside of US influence) or France (only EU nuclear power). A homegrown nuclear weapon would mean pulling out of the NPT and quite possibly giving a state like the US pretext to annex Greenland in the face of Denmark seeking nucear weapons.

rsynnott 1y ago
France has previously indicated that it's willing to make its nuclear umbrella available to other EU countries, though precisely under what terms is unclear.
jmclnx 1y ago
Canada ? Canada could allow France and maybe the UK to put sites on their soil. That would piss of Trump, always a good thing and will give Canada some security. Also, Denmark should now kick the US Military Sites off Greenland until the US climbs out if its psychotic break.
aurareturn 1y ago
nuclear umbrella would be a choice between Russia (practically impossible) Would be one of the bigger plot twists in history. I wouldn't rule it out. I think it has a decent chance of happening. Maybe 10%? Let's say the Russia/Ukraine war is over. Russia mends its ties with Europe and says it will be good from now on. The US is ready to annex Greenland. Denmark is powerless and will lose Greenland. Russia calls Denmark and says it can help. If you're Denmark, what would you do?
- rsynnott 1y ago
  I mean, France would still be a far more obvious partner under those circumstances.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > France would still be a far more obvious partner under those circumstances Unless the weapons are under Copenhagen’s control, they’re Potemkin protection. Paris won’t risk its economy being destroyed by sanctions, much less its military destroyed by the American war machine, to protect Danish interests in Greenland.
- docdeek 1y ago
  I think that the chance of an EU and NATO member aligning themselves with Russia would be a lot lower than a 1 in 10.
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    What if a NATO member is suddenly hostile to you and Russia says it can help you? Russia probably does not want the US to have Greenland. It would certainly trigger a collapse of NATO. But if the US is serious about taking Greenland, that automatically starts the collapse anyway, right? Anyway, just all hypotheticals. Interesting to think about. I don't think chances are 0. History has shown us that countries make surprising decisions, including allying with historic enemies, when pushed against the wall.
  - polotics 1y ago
    Well eventualy one would hope the Putin Mafia dies out and the Russian Diaspora manages to turn that country back to a happier place than its current child-abducting state. There are many good russians, there is an actual society under the madness, look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_0E9IzXT34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_0E9IzXT34
- egman_ekki 1y ago
  You're giving a 10% chance to Denmark allying with Russia over a threat from US? Even right-wing parties in Dk aren't really pro-Russian, so I'd say the chance is closer to 0 than 10%.
- vintermann 1y ago
  According to lesser evil politics, if people actually believed in it, it wouldn't take that much to choose Putin over Trump. Putin getting better may not be so likely, but Trump has a lot of time to get worse. But people don't actually believe in lesser evil politics, they believe in loyalty (to sides, not to principles). That goes for both politicians and people. Danish politicians will not switch geopolitical alliances, and they'd honestly be color-revolutioned out if they tried, without even the CIA having to lift a finger.
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    I don't know much about the Danes. But if in the next 2 years, anti-Trump/American propaganda fills the media, the US is very serious about taking Greenland, wouldn't they be more open to support their politicians for signing some agreement with Russia to guarantee Greenland's position?
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      Danes aren't stupid. They know that guarantees from Russia are not worth the paper they are printed on. Besides that they are in the EU, part of Scandinavia and whatever is left of NATO without the USA. Between all of these there are parts of a solution to be found that include neither the USA or Russia, which would be far better for Europe in the long term. Ukraine is a test case about whether or not the remainder of the free world can be salamied or not, that's the Russian side of it (and who knows, maybe the Baltics or more likely Moldavia would be next) and Greenland or Canada are the same thing from the United States' side.
    - vintermann 1y ago
      No, I don't think so. Not until Trump actually invaded Greenland would Danes maybe consider Putin (or Xi Jinping) an option. Anti-US propaganda won't fill Danish newspapers, for the aforementioned loyalty reasons. Media people in Denmark (as elsewhere in the West) identify on a personal level with the sensible establishment. Sure, it's awkward that Trump isn't part of that and is currently in charge in the US, but they are convinced things will go back to normal over there, and then it'd be really embarrassing to have failed the loyalty test to the US. "Losing your glove" and all that.
- tomp 1y ago
  I mean, this is literally the story of Ukraine in 2014. Putin gave them a better deal than the West. The US organized protests and toppled the government. Why wouldn't the US do the same in Denmark or any other Western country?
  - CyberDildonics 1y ago
    Are you saying that russia invading ukraine in february 2014 to take crimea was putin "giving them a better deal than the west" ?
    - tomp 1y ago
      No, before that. Russias trade deal was better than EU's, and the loan agreement better than IMF's. It's all on Wikipedia, and news articles. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25427706 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25427706
      - CyberDildonics 1y ago
        And people in Ukraine loved this and the only reason they protested their energy being tied to a country that was going to invade them and start a war in a few weeks was because of the US ?
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    > I mean, this is literally the story of Ukraine in 2014. Putin gave them a better deal than the West. What a load of tripe.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> homegrown nuclear weapon would mean pulling out of the NPT Build then pull. Or don’t. It’s a treaty from a falling world order. > quite possibly giving a state like the US pretext to annex Greenland If you believe America would wait for pretext, you don’t need the umbrella.

rsynnott 1y ago

France has previously indicated that it's willing to make its nuclear umbrella available to other EU countries, though precisely under what terms is unclear.

jmclnx 1y ago

Canada ? Canada could allow France and maybe the UK to put sites on their soil. That would piss of Trump, always a good thing and will give Canada some security. Also, Denmark should now kick the US Military Sites off Greenland until the US climbs out if its psychotic break.

aurareturn 1y ago

nuclear umbrella would be a choice between Russia (practically impossible) Would be one of the bigger plot twists in history. I wouldn't rule it out. I think it has a decent chance of happening. Maybe 10%? Let's say the Russia/Ukraine war is over. Russia mends its ties with Europe and says it will be good from now on. The US is ready to annex Greenland. Denmark is powerless and will lose Greenland. Russia calls Denmark and says it can help. If you're Denmark, what would you do?

rsynnott 1y ago
I mean, France would still be a far more obvious partner under those circumstances.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > France would still be a far more obvious partner under those circumstances Unless the weapons are under Copenhagen’s control, they’re Potemkin protection. Paris won’t risk its economy being destroyed by sanctions, much less its military destroyed by the American war machine, to protect Danish interests in Greenland.
docdeek 1y ago
I think that the chance of an EU and NATO member aligning themselves with Russia would be a lot lower than a 1 in 10.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  What if a NATO member is suddenly hostile to you and Russia says it can help you? Russia probably does not want the US to have Greenland. It would certainly trigger a collapse of NATO. But if the US is serious about taking Greenland, that automatically starts the collapse anyway, right? Anyway, just all hypotheticals. Interesting to think about. I don't think chances are 0. History has shown us that countries make surprising decisions, including allying with historic enemies, when pushed against the wall.
- polotics 1y ago
  Well eventualy one would hope the Putin Mafia dies out and the Russian Diaspora manages to turn that country back to a happier place than its current child-abducting state. There are many good russians, there is an actual society under the madness, look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_0E9IzXT34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_0E9IzXT34
egman_ekki 1y ago
You're giving a 10% chance to Denmark allying with Russia over a threat from US? Even right-wing parties in Dk aren't really pro-Russian, so I'd say the chance is closer to 0 than 10%.
vintermann 1y ago
According to lesser evil politics, if people actually believed in it, it wouldn't take that much to choose Putin over Trump. Putin getting better may not be so likely, but Trump has a lot of time to get worse. But people don't actually believe in lesser evil politics, they believe in loyalty (to sides, not to principles). That goes for both politicians and people. Danish politicians will not switch geopolitical alliances, and they'd honestly be color-revolutioned out if they tried, without even the CIA having to lift a finger.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  I don't know much about the Danes. But if in the next 2 years, anti-Trump/American propaganda fills the media, the US is very serious about taking Greenland, wouldn't they be more open to support their politicians for signing some agreement with Russia to guarantee Greenland's position?
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    Danes aren't stupid. They know that guarantees from Russia are not worth the paper they are printed on. Besides that they are in the EU, part of Scandinavia and whatever is left of NATO without the USA. Between all of these there are parts of a solution to be found that include neither the USA or Russia, which would be far better for Europe in the long term. Ukraine is a test case about whether or not the remainder of the free world can be salamied or not, that's the Russian side of it (and who knows, maybe the Baltics or more likely Moldavia would be next) and Greenland or Canada are the same thing from the United States' side.
  - vintermann 1y ago
    No, I don't think so. Not until Trump actually invaded Greenland would Danes maybe consider Putin (or Xi Jinping) an option. Anti-US propaganda won't fill Danish newspapers, for the aforementioned loyalty reasons. Media people in Denmark (as elsewhere in the West) identify on a personal level with the sensible establishment. Sure, it's awkward that Trump isn't part of that and is currently in charge in the US, but they are convinced things will go back to normal over there, and then it'd be really embarrassing to have failed the loyalty test to the US. "Losing your glove" and all that.
tomp 1y ago
I mean, this is literally the story of Ukraine in 2014. Putin gave them a better deal than the West. The US organized protests and toppled the government. Why wouldn't the US do the same in Denmark or any other Western country?
- CyberDildonics 1y ago
  Are you saying that russia invading ukraine in february 2014 to take crimea was putin "giving them a better deal than the west" ?
  - tomp 1y ago
    No, before that. Russias trade deal was better than EU's, and the loan agreement better than IMF's. It's all on Wikipedia, and news articles. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25427706 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25427706
    - CyberDildonics 1y ago
      And people in Ukraine loved this and the only reason they protested their energy being tied to a country that was going to invade them and start a war in a few weeks was because of the US ?
- jacquesm 1y ago
  > I mean, this is literally the story of Ukraine in 2014. Putin gave them a better deal than the West. What a load of tripe.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> homegrown nuclear weapon would mean pulling out of the NPT Build then pull. Or don’t. It’s a treaty from a falling world order. > quite possibly giving a state like the US pretext to annex Greenland If you believe America would wait for pretext, you don’t need the umbrella.