4 ms·

And for some reason Europe is always excused from that standard, despite Orban, Fico, Meloni, Wilders, Nawrocki, Erdogan, etc etc. We're meant to believe that

by troad 1y ago

And for some reason Europe is always excused from that standard, despite Orban, Fico, Meloni, Wilders, Nawrocki, Erdogan, etc etc. We're meant to believe that the 49%-to-48% election of Trump is some deep window into the eternal American psyche, but Orban's fifteen-year drive into corrupt, racist autocracy, endorsed by the voters at every turn, is just some sort of very temporary oopsie that says nothing at all about Europe. When Meloni uses her pulpit as a popular Italian prime minister to attack gay families, you don't see anyone claiming this reflects the bullying nature of the Italian people, but that's par for the course for coverage of Americans and Trump. Swathes of Poland declaring themselves "gay free zones" is an aberration from European values, whereas anything that happens in deepest Alabama is the truest reflection of the American spirit. It's mere hypocrisy.

buellerbueller 1y ago
DeSantis says a lot about Florida, less so the USA. Pritzker says a lot about Illinois, less so the USA. Abbott says a lot about Texas, less so the USA. Newsom says a lot about California, less so the USA. Understand why your argument is a very poor one? If not, I have 46 more of these examples.
0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
Don't forget France. The far-right party is most popular by far: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/ https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/ The majority of second-round polling has the far right winning the next presidency in France, potentially even by a landslide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_French_presidential_election#Second_round https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_F... For that reason, it's rather ironic to me when I see Europeans rally around Macron. France is poised to rug-pull Europe. Sorry guys. BTW, guess which party is most popular in the UK? It's not particularly close: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ At least AfD is merely a very close #2 in Germany: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/germany/ https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/germany/ Europe is sleepwalking.
- af78 1y ago
  I share your pessimism. Le Pen's far-right National Rally (RN) has had ties with the Kremlin for a long time. That alone should have discredited this party a long time ago, but no, it is ranking as high as ever, even after russia's overt invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Mélenchon's far-left "France Insoumise" party ranks very high too, and is similarly pro-russian, anti-EU, anti-NATO. In the town where I live, more than half the votes have gone to the RN these past elections. I often feel like a Cassandra.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
    Don't worry, you'll have the pleasure of being blamed for the votes of your neighbors before much longer ;-)
- ViewTrick1002 1y ago
  It is easy to be in opposition and complain about everything. The contrarian parties tend to get very popular in the years between election cycles as the governing party can't deliver on everything and has to compromise. Because you do know that Labour in the UK won a landslide victory a year ago and the last date for holding a new general election is in 2029. The Scandinavian experience is that these parties crash as soon as they get to real power and have to compromise. Suddenly they had to be responsible. If we do see these Trumpian parties win the majority in these elections in more rather than one-offs then we have a problem. But you're just fearmongering because you can't accept how completely wacko Trump is and need to blame it on "everyone does it!!!".
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
    >The contrarian parties tend to get very popular in the years between election cycles as the governing party can't deliver on everything and has to compromise. So what happened in Hungary, or Italy, or other examples mentioned by troad? Are you aware that RN, at this very moment, has by far the most seats of any party in the French parliament? Those far-right sentiments didn't magically disappear on election day. >The Scandinavian experience is that these parties crash as soon as they get to real power and have to compromise. Suddenly they had to be responsible. >If we do see these Trumpian parties win the majority in these elections in more rather than one-offs then we have a problem. The "majority" comparison is meaningless in this context because the US only has support for two parties. (Imagine Germany had a contest between AfD and Die Linke only. That's akin to the situation in the US right now.) "Governing coalitions" aren't really formed here, so the notion of "they get to real power and have to compromise" doesn't exist in the same way. So: Even assuming we grant your argument, Trump's power in the US has more to do with quirks of our political system than something fundamental about American culture. >you can't accept how completely wacko Trump is I never said he wasn't completely wacko. I simply said he doesn't personify the US any more than Biden does.
sofixa 1y ago
> but Orban's fifteen-year drive into corrupt, racist autocracy, endorsed by the voters at every turn, is just some sort of very temporary oopsie that says nothing at all about Europe Yes, Orban says nothing about Europe. It says plenty about Hungary though. Europe not being a country, and the EU being very heavily decentralised, that makes sense.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
  >Orban says nothing about Europe. Hungary is literally in Europe. If Orban says nothing about Europe, then nothing can ever say anything about Europe. Your country is choosing to stay in a union with Orban's. If EU membership is meaningless, as you imply, it should be easy for your country to quit in order to make a point about Hungary.
  - sofixa 1y ago
    > Hungary is literally in Europe. If Orban says nothing about Europe, then nothing can ever say anything about Europe. so are the Vatican and Andorra and Belarus, so all of Europe is theocratic and/or a kleptocracy? > Your country is choosing to stay in a union with Orban's Because the benefits far outweigh the association with that pigshit, who will also die some day. Also, the EU can and does exert influence over countries, so some of Orban's excesses can be curbed.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
      >so are the Vatican and Andorra and Belarus, so all of Europe is theocratic and/or a kleptocracy? All of the places we're discussing are part of Europe, so insofar as any place can be said to "say something about" Europe, each says something about it. >Because the benefits far outweigh the association with that pigshit, who will also die some day. Also, the EU can and does exert influence over countries, so some of Orban's excesses can be curbed. One could make similar arguments for staying in the US. Trump is 79; Orban is 62.
corimaith 1y ago
What Trump is and his values aren't particularly different from the usual right-wing populism elsewhere, hell for most of the "global south" people like him or the norm if not the majority of voters.

by troad 1y ago

buellerbueller 1y ago

DeSantis says a lot about Florida, less so the USA. Pritzker says a lot about Illinois, less so the USA. Abbott says a lot about Texas, less so the USA. Newsom says a lot about California, less so the USA. Understand why your argument is a very poor one? If not, I have 46 more of these examples.

0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago

Don't forget France. The far-right party is most popular by far: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/ https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/ The majority of second-round polling has the far right winning the next presidency in France, potentially even by a landslide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_French_presidential_election#Second_round https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_F... For that reason, it's rather ironic to me when I see Europeans rally around Macron. France is poised to rug-pull Europe. Sorry guys. BTW, guess which party is most popular in the UK? It's not particularly close: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ At least AfD is merely a very close #2 in Germany: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/germany/ https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/germany/ Europe is sleepwalking.

af78 1y ago
I share your pessimism. Le Pen's far-right National Rally (RN) has had ties with the Kremlin for a long time. That alone should have discredited this party a long time ago, but no, it is ranking as high as ever, even after russia's overt invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Mélenchon's far-left "France Insoumise" party ranks very high too, and is similarly pro-russian, anti-EU, anti-NATO. In the town where I live, more than half the votes have gone to the RN these past elections. I often feel like a Cassandra.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
  Don't worry, you'll have the pleasure of being blamed for the votes of your neighbors before much longer ;-)
ViewTrick1002 1y ago
It is easy to be in opposition and complain about everything. The contrarian parties tend to get very popular in the years between election cycles as the governing party can't deliver on everything and has to compromise. Because you do know that Labour in the UK won a landslide victory a year ago and the last date for holding a new general election is in 2029. The Scandinavian experience is that these parties crash as soon as they get to real power and have to compromise. Suddenly they had to be responsible. If we do see these Trumpian parties win the majority in these elections in more rather than one-offs then we have a problem. But you're just fearmongering because you can't accept how completely wacko Trump is and need to blame it on "everyone does it!!!".
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
  >The contrarian parties tend to get very popular in the years between election cycles as the governing party can't deliver on everything and has to compromise. So what happened in Hungary, or Italy, or other examples mentioned by troad? Are you aware that RN, at this very moment, has by far the most seats of any party in the French parliament? Those far-right sentiments didn't magically disappear on election day. >The Scandinavian experience is that these parties crash as soon as they get to real power and have to compromise. Suddenly they had to be responsible. >If we do see these Trumpian parties win the majority in these elections in more rather than one-offs then we have a problem. The "majority" comparison is meaningless in this context because the US only has support for two parties. (Imagine Germany had a contest between AfD and Die Linke only. That's akin to the situation in the US right now.) "Governing coalitions" aren't really formed here, so the notion of "they get to real power and have to compromise" doesn't exist in the same way. So: Even assuming we grant your argument, Trump's power in the US has more to do with quirks of our political system than something fundamental about American culture. >you can't accept how completely wacko Trump is I never said he wasn't completely wacko. I simply said he doesn't personify the US any more than Biden does.

sofixa 1y ago

> but Orban's fifteen-year drive into corrupt, racist autocracy, endorsed by the voters at every turn, is just some sort of very temporary oopsie that says nothing at all about Europe Yes, Orban says nothing about Europe. It says plenty about Hungary though. Europe not being a country, and the EU being very heavily decentralised, that makes sense.

0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
>Orban says nothing about Europe. Hungary is literally in Europe. If Orban says nothing about Europe, then nothing can ever say anything about Europe. Your country is choosing to stay in a union with Orban's. If EU membership is meaningless, as you imply, it should be easy for your country to quit in order to make a point about Hungary.
- sofixa 1y ago
  > Hungary is literally in Europe. If Orban says nothing about Europe, then nothing can ever say anything about Europe. so are the Vatican and Andorra and Belarus, so all of Europe is theocratic and/or a kleptocracy? > Your country is choosing to stay in a union with Orban's Because the benefits far outweigh the association with that pigshit, who will also die some day. Also, the EU can and does exert influence over countries, so some of Orban's excesses can be curbed.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
    >so are the Vatican and Andorra and Belarus, so all of Europe is theocratic and/or a kleptocracy? All of the places we're discussing are part of Europe, so insofar as any place can be said to "say something about" Europe, each says something about it. >Because the benefits far outweigh the association with that pigshit, who will also die some day. Also, the EU can and does exert influence over countries, so some of Orban's excesses can be curbed. One could make similar arguments for staying in the US. Trump is 79; Orban is 62.

corimaith 1y ago

What Trump is and his values aren't particularly different from the usual right-wing populism elsewhere, hell for most of the "global south" people like him or the norm if not the majority of voters.