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I'm happy to answer questions around the new product.
by nrp 1y ago
I'm happy to answer questions around the new product.
- joombaga 1y agoWill my Valve Index work with it? I was sad to find it doesn't work with my Intel Core Framework 13, even on Windows.
- nileshtrivedi 1y agoETA on launching in India?
- vishnugupta 1y agoCame here to ask exactly this.
- Deuter8 1y agoI literally just want a touchpad with buttons. These new 'clickpads' are the bane of my existence. They are so much slower, and certain workflows are impossible. I must use an external mouse now with modern laptops. Why can no laptop manufacturer even make this an option?
- criddell 1y agoWhat workflows are impossible with a trackpad but possible with a mouse?
- diggan 1y agoWith the trackpads that have built-in clicks in the pad itself, I've always found it really difficult to drag-and-drop stuff if it has to be pulled longer than a few pixels. Just moving and pressing against a surface seems to not be a super accurate movement in general.
- sorrythanks 1y agoHave you tried holding with one finger and aiming with the other?
- diggan 1y agoI don't think I have, long time ago I had to use a laptop myself, just remember that being difficult last time I had to do it together with someone else. Probably depends on the software/hardware itself also, how well something like that would work.
- Deuter8 1y agoHave you? The precision vs a touchpad with buttons isn't even close. It may well be a driver issue in Linux, all I know for sure is that it's an issue that does not exist with touchpads and that I have already spent far too much of my life fiddling with settings trying to get it to behave.
- sorrythanks 1y agoI have, yes! I do it a lot when dragging and dropping on Linux. Start the drag with one finger, and then bring a new finger in to move it. It's just like using a button. I've not had to configure anything to make this work for a number of years now in Plasma. Though I've been running Linux on Macbooks for a long time, so maybe it's about specific hardware support.
- pmontra 1y agoI never had problems with precision on HP high end models, Windows XP up to 2008 and several Ubuntu versions since then to 2022, then Debian. I own an nc8430 and a ZBook 15 first generation. I use the lower row of three mouse buttons as left, middle and right click. Those touchpads don't move and don't bend. I disabled tap to click as buttons are much better and never move accidentally the pointer by design. Palm detection works very well, basically no issues. I use two finger scroll and pan. Several gestures work but I don't really like them. I disabled everything. I rather use keyboard shortcuts. I defined some of my own especially to navigate among virtual desktops. There is still one ZBook Fury model with buttons, every other model lost them.
- Deuter8 1y agoWhile I prefer an external mouse, I can manage ECAD and some 3D modelling if I have buttons. It's great in a pinch. I'm getting nauseous even imagining it with a clickpad.
- dismalaf 1y agoThinkPads still have buttons, or do you require buttons specifically under the touchpad?
- iknowstuff 1y agoI’ve never missed having buttons on the macbook trackpad lol How are they slower/impossible?
- aaomidi 1y agoBecause the macbook trackpad is good.
- ksec 1y agoProblem is none of the trackpad on PC are as good as the Apple trackpad
- nottorp 1y ago... it's a software problem afaik. The trackpad may be slightly better quality, but it's the drivers and the OS integration that make even some games playable without a mouse on Mac OS. Don't think any one x86 laptop manufacturer can fix it.
- kibwen 1y agoHardware-wise, no, I've had plenty of PC trackpads that are better than Apple trackpads. But MacOS tends to have better built-in support for advanced gestures, which seem to be impossible on Windows and must be manually configured on Linux (but gives you enormous power once you do).
- dismalaf 1y agoGNOME on Wayland has lots of useful gestures out of the box. It's part of the DE though, so lots of DEs don't have them.
- kzrdude 1y agoUsing Gnome (for whatever reason), I'm used to two finger scrolling and three finger swiping just working by default.
- danudey 1y agoApple's palm rejection is also top tier, though other systems have been getting better. My current Dell seems fine so far, but at my last company the Dell I had was almost unusable due to my cursor just teleporting around my document randomly if my hands got too close to the trackpad (which is where they have to be to type). Not sure if it's a hardware (Dell) or software (Ubuntu) improvement, but thank god.
- soperj 1y agoThinkpads still have buttons. I don't ever use the trackpad, just the nub and buttons.
- SoftTalker 1y agoBest keyboard/mouse implementation ever. I use a thinkpad keyboard on my desktop. A separate mouse feels so klunky by comparison.
- rustyminnow 1y agoI would be all in on the nub if mine didn't have such terrible drift. Trackpad with top buttons beats any other trackpad though.
- opan 1y agoYou may be running into the auto calibration.
- JoshTriplett 1y agoI use the touchpad together with the buttons, on my ThinkPad, and rarely use the stick.
- neilv 1y agoI have bad news for you: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/thinkpad-p1-gen-7-16-inch-intel/len101t0107 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/th... Someone should scoop up the niche market of anguished ThinkPad devotees, with a TrackPoint and a good, non-chiclet keyboard. Maybe Framework, leveraging its modular system. Maybe a Framework-compatible third-party.
- cosmic_cheese 1y agoCan only speak for myself, but for me the issue with traditional clickpads comes down to their mechanical diving board nature. Even the best ones are not nice to use due to the unavoidable variance in pressure and click feel across the pad that is exacerbated as the size of the pad increases and the mechanism wears over time. The type that doesn’t move at all and simulates a click with haptics on the other hand I find just fine. MacBooks do this of course but there’s also a few x86 laptops equipped with pads like that. So in my opinion, mechanical clickpads should disappear entirely and laptops should offer two options: a static haptic clickpad and traditional trackpad with buttons.
- jsmith45 1y agoHonestly, I'm here half wondering why we need the click at all. One finger drag for move, quick one finger tap for left click, tap and half for click and drag, two finger tap, two finger drag for scroll covers all the common interactions. Which isn't to say I don't use the click functionality at all. I will subconciously use it in some scenarios, but not in others, but if it were missing I would adapt very quickly, since I use the gesture alternatives so often, that I would automatically fall back to them. I suppose I need the click for some obscure interactions like right click drag, but honestly except in games I've almost never seen that used. My surface laptop as currently configured literally wouldn't even allow some other rare ones like hold button and scroll (I'd need to turn on right side scroll-wheel for that) and I've never even noticed the absence of that ability until I tried it just now.
- rootnod3 1y agoI feel you. An option with a trackpoint would be a dream.
- gloxkiqcza 1y agoCan’t you map a keyboard button as a mouse click? I agree it’s not the best workaround but it should be a functional one, right?
- Deuter8 1y agoMy current plan is to retrofit buttons to my clickpad. Earlier this week I ordered a few different styles of touchpad buttons from AliExpress to test. I'll build a custom little USB HID device for it once I've picked my favourite one. I don't think I can rely on laptop manufacturers to buck the clickpad trend any time soon, so I'll do it myself.
- pmontra 1y agoThat would be incredibly cool. Please post a Show HN of your project. I'm afraid that I'll need to do something like that for my next laptop.
- Aurornis 1y ago> Why can no laptop manufacturer even make this an option? Because it’s a variation of both the case and the internals that brings a higher failure rate, more dust ingress, more moving parts, and, most importantly, would rarely be chosen. > They are so much slower, They are objectively faster because you can click anywhere rather than moving a finger to a button or keeping one finger always on the button.
- MobiusHorizons 1y agoSome people used to use a separate finger like the thumb to click, which is pretty fast.
- chao- 1y agoThis is my issue! All these years later, I am still not used to it, and I accidentally trigger multi-tap nonsense that I didn't intend because I am trying to click with my thumb.
- vile_wretch 1y agoMy only point of reference is my MacBook Pro trackpad but I have no problem using my finger to move the cursor with my thumb resting on the trackpad and clicking. Not exactly the same because you lose some of the tactility of discrete buttons but it seems somewhat possible at least.
- MobiusHorizons 1y agoYeah, most of the non-apple implementations of this don’t work with using a second finger to click in my experience. They expect you to click with the pointing finger.
- JoshTriplett 1y agoExactly. On ThinkPad touchpads with real hardware mouse buttons, I move on the touchpad with my pointer finger, and click with my middle finger.
- nrp 1y agoThe Touchpad Module is easy to replace, and the CAD and interface specs we've published on https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-16 https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-16 are likely detailed enough that anyone can try making one!
- JoshTriplett 1y agoHow much demand would there need to be for you to make one first-party? How might we go about registering the quantity of that demand?
- nine_k 1y agoAside: what if frame.work site had a place for popular vote for features? (With proper registration, etc.) E.g. Digital Ocean has this, and it seems helpful, they follow up on some of the most upvoted feature requests. It's sort of free market research.
- blackoil 1y agoKickstarter style upfront payment may be more useful. You want touchpad with buttons; it would cost 300k to develop if enough people paid, the company would build it. If it is a niche, let open ecosystem take care of it.
- IshKebab 1y ago> These new 'clickpads' are the bane of my existence. But only because they are all worse than Apple's version. What you really want isn't a touchpad with buttons, is a "clickpad" that doesn't suck. And as far as I know only Apple makes them.
- kmeisthax 1y agoNot a question about the Framework Laptop 16 specifically, but why are the upgrade kits[0] for the Laptop 13 still marked as "register interest" on the Framework Marketplace? The Ryzen AI 300 motherboards, RAM, and Wi-fi cards are all available separately already. [0] https://frame.work/products/framework-laptop-13-mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-ai-300 https://frame.work/products/framework-laptop-13-mainboard-ki...
- juujian 1y agoYou knew the question was coming. ThinkPad style trackpoint keyboard!
- christiangenco 1y agoHah, I'm curious if this is legally possible. I've never seen that on any non-ThinkPad laptop.
- beAbU 1y agoMany dells and HPs come with track points
- yjftsjthsd-h 1y agoI have multiple Dell laptops that have a mouse nub in the middle of the keyboard
- jerlam 1y agoI've used it on a Dell laptop too, but it was far inferior to the Trackpoint. I think IBM/Lenovo had a patent on the specific technology but it might be expired now.
- bluGill 1y agoThe track point dates to the 1990's at least so at least the main patents have expired. I have no clue about advances they might have made
- noooooooph 1y agoI recall Dell had laptops in the past at some point that had blue trackpoint-like nubs
- codr7 1y agoAnd they were complete trash in comparison to the ones on ThinkPads imo.
- evolve2k 1y agoWould love to hear ur take on the impact of tariffs and how u folks have navigated that. Would u consider setting up an assembly plant outside the US to sell to to customers internationally? I’m in Australia.
- nrp 1y agoWe manufacture our systems and many of our modules in Taiwan, and have had less tariff impact than other electronics companies as a result. Currently, laptops are also exempt from some tariffs.
- mixmastamyk 1y agoWill we ever have ECC RAM as an option?
- sandreas 1y ago+1 And if not, could you elaborate? It would also be a huge benefit to use a replaced mainboard as a homelab base WITH ECC support in the future. Same goes for the Framework Desktop, which features Strix Halo without ECC support, whereas ECC IS possible with Ryzen AI MAX+ 395+ PRO (e.g. HP Z2 Mini G1a).
- tracker1 1y agoCan't speak for Framework, but AMD themselves doesn't necessarily support this configuration so it would be on Framework to develop/test/certify a compatibility list... they'd likely only support first party modules, if anything. At least for non-pro AMD CPUs. Likely mostly down to resources/time as to the lack of official support.
- mixmastamyk 1y agoYes, we often hear it is "not supported." I'm here saying all my future non-mobile devices are required have ECC RAM or better. Take the money. ;-)
- needlesslygrim 1y agoI'm very impressed you managed to get nvidia to give you access to the 5070! I have one queetion though, is the 5070 limited to 100W because of the docking connector, or for cooling reasons?
- stodor89 1y agoAin't no way this cooling system is handling a 100W GPU comfortably.
- nrp 1y agoPrimarily for thermal reasons.
- needlesslygrim 1y agoThat's good to hear, I guess it's possible a thicker module could be made in the future with more cooling potential?
- layer8 1y agoWhy no full-height arrow keys and Esc/function key row? There would be enough space.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 1y agoI have an old Framework 16. How do I know which of the new parts I can upgrade? I imagine I can't upgrade my chassis (or can I?)
- nrp 1y agoYou can upgrade to any one of the new parts. In the Framework Marketplace, you can set compatibility filters to see the new parts (some of which are on waitlist because we'll be shipping them later this year): https://frame.work/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=laptop_16 https://frame.work/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=laptop_16
- trelane 1y agoWhat all does your Linux support entail? Do you offer support for both Linux abd Windows models? Is the firmware identical for the models that ship with Windows and those that ship with Linux? How well does Linux work out of the box? What kind of small glitches can a Linux user expect?
- nrp 1y agoWe publish our recommended and officially supported Linux distros here: https://frame.work/laptop16?tab=linux https://frame.work/laptop16?tab=linux For the new generation, we'll list those as we get closer to shipments.
- bsimpson 1y agoGranted: - Bazzite takes community contributions; whereas, SteamOS is packaged and distributed by Valve, and - Bazzite is based on Fedora, so the work to support Fedora should bubble over to Bazzite. I'm curious though, is there a big difference in functionality for SteamOS vs Bazzite. Are there things that work in Bazzite that wouldn't in pure SteamOS?
- mac-attack 1y agoI'm guessing/hoping Debian 13 now meets the requirements and can be added?
- starkparker 1y ago> Is the firmware identical for the models that ship with Windows and those that ship with Linux? Yes. The firmware upgrade processes can differ, but there's no difference in firmware, and you can buy a Framework kit with no OS provided.
- mintplant 1y agoIn theory I'm the perfect audience for the Framework 16! The only thing holding me back is the lack of a 4K display. It's so good for dense text on the screen (e.g., code with lots of split buffers), I can't go back. Still waiting patiently for this to become an option.
- herczegzsolt 1y agoThis! The only reason for me going with the Dell Premium 16 instead of framework, is that I need my 1920px screen width at 200% scaling. Such a shame, the Framework is better in so many other ways.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- aidenn0 1y agoIs it possible to put the trackpad "above" (as in closer to the display) the keyboard? This is to me the obvious correct place to put it, but I'm in the clear minority.
- skywal_l 1y agoAny hope for a 75 keyboard? With home/end/pageup/pagedown on the side?
- nrp 1y agoWe're developing key modules that enable the community and 3rd party keyboard developers to create alternate key layouts.
- gary_0 1y agoI would love more keyboard options! If I could have a laptop with a keyboard more like a standard tenkeyless, I would be over the moon. In the meantime, I'll have to see about hacking the standard keyboard somehow, although there's no fixing those arrow keys.
- JohnTHaller 1y agoWouldn't it be possible to have a side add-on similar to the numeric keypad but the width of the spacer or LED matrix to accomplish this? Maybe a revamped keypad that has home, end, page up, page down, and then a bunch of assignable macro keys would work well.
- nrp 1y agoYep, definitely possible!
- sandreas 1y agoDid you consider QMK / VIA or other open source variants as keyboard firmware?
- edgineer 1y agoI'm very happy to see Framework lead the USB power delivery pack by supporting 240W, 48V/5A charging on the Framework 16. As the first company to ship laptops using this spec, what problems or quirks, if any, have you seen from 48V charging in the field?
- nrp 1y agoSince we designed both the power adapter and the product that is using it, it just works. There aren't a lot of other devices that support 240W USB-C for us to test against.
- nine_k 1y agoHow thick must be the cable that delivers 48V @ 5A? I suppose not much thicker than normal, but still? Does this require a specialty cable to achieve that?
- ItsHarper 1y agoIncreasing the voltage doesn't require a thicker cable, and 5A power starts with 100W USB-C PD. USB-C cables that support 5A aren't that thick, but they do need a special chip so that the devices know it's safe to send 5A.
- hruzgar 1y agoNot specifically about the new laptop but will you guys ever do a 15 inch non-gaming laptop that looks similar to a macbook? I really want to buy one of your products but 13 inch is a bit too small for me while the Laptop 16 is a bit too bulky.
- mixmastamyk 1y agoYes, I am another who wished for a bigger 13.
- haakon 1y agoI wish I could buy it, but I'm in the unfortunate situation of being in Norway, instead of almost any other European country. Will you ever ship here? ;-(
- clhodapp 1y agoAny possibility of a new Linux keyboard? Else, are the existing Linux keyboard modules compatible with the updated shell?
- nrp 1y agoThe new keyboard artwork across all languages is Linux by default, meaning no Windows logo on the super key.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- madmod 1y agoAwesome job on following through with the upgradability! I love the nvidia support! Are you coming out with another coolermaster case for the 16 mainboard? I want to make a custom dock with fans to force more cooling over the radiators. Could it be possible to "unlock" the 100W TDP of the 5070 in firmware or are there other hardware limitations like the interconnect? Was adding the USB C power input on the GPU necessary to get full power? I see in the specs on github that VADP_GPU can take 100W into the mainboard and VSYS_GPU can supply 240W to the GPU. Are there any tradeoffs powering the system from the back ports vs the GPU? Was the previous version of the AMD GPU not sending the display signal directly to the panel via the edp mux but instead via the igpu? If not is that something you can update in firmware? Can you publish how this was done so someone can make an oculink expansion board with displayport input? Thanks to everyone at Framework for making such awesome hackable products!
- sounds 1y agoI (pre) ordered one. I'd be so excited if the haptic super-wide touchpad made an appearance, even if in some limited form.
- bsimpson 1y agoApparently the AMD RZ717 is a rebranded Mediatek MT7925. It's strange that the prose uses the AMD name, but the photo uses Mediatek's.
- bsimpson 1y agoWhen I clicked the "Already an owner" link, it sent me to the Romanian page when I'm in the US on a desktop device that has never been abroad: https://frame.work/ro/en/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=laptop_16_amd_ryzen_7040_series&compatibility%5B%5D=laptop_16_amd_ryzen_ai300_series https://frame.work/ro/en/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=lap...
- jqr- 1y agoSame thing happened to me. It's because the original link is to the Romanian site.
- bsimpson 1y agoGood catch! Didn't realize he wasn't OP.
- nrp 1y agoWe don't submit our own announcements :) Agreed that it would be great if the submission link was updated to be frame.work/laptop16 instead though.
- ThePowerOfFuet 1y ago@dsng Any possibility?
- shkkmo 1y agoSame for me with the configure now button
- mpyne 1y agoThe original link for this HN discussion goes to the Romanian page, so that's probably why. This link may work better for you: https://frame.work/laptop16 https://frame.work/laptop16
- waqar144 1y agoPlease fix the performance of your website. Scrolling down is too slow and crashes my browser sometimes.
- fooker 1y agoWhat's the bottleneck in getting a Macbook like touchpad experience in a modern non-Apple laptop? Is it software? Some specific company that won't sell parts to anyone else? Patents? I have tried several laptops, and nothing has even comes close in the last ten or so years. I am hoping you might have some unique insight into this! PS: Framework Laptop 16 looks great, will order one later this year and then get a GPU with more vram whenever available in future.
- pickledish 1y agoIf you haven't seen it, this "Linux Touchpad like Macbook" project is related, the last/best effort I've seen in this direction. Here's a random update from a few years ago: https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_december_2021 https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_december...
- ornornor 1y agoIs this effort still underway?
- znpy 1y agoany chances we'll see an arm/qualcomm motherboard one day?
- snvzz 1y agoI see it is still not possible to order from Japan. Is there an ongoing effort on solving this?
- ehnto 1y agoYour team might want to know that the website can crash on firefox mobile. It even crashes firefox itself, and the android UI. Unfortunately I am unwilling to give further details except that it is firefox on a very reasonable Android device.
- fphhotchips 1y agoI understand there's two versions of requirements for the NVidia 50 series - the higher end 5070Ti and up, and the lower end 5070 and down. What's the chance of releasing a 5070Ti/5080 version?