5 ms·

It has little to do with religion. There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only on

It has little to do with religion. There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. It's also a way for collapsing government-run healthcare to save money.

clipsy 1y ago
> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. How many examples? What percentage of patients eligible for MAID receive such treatment?
- flappyeagle 1y ago
  how many would you like?
  - TylerE 1y ago
    Well, some sort of source of any kind would be a start if you’re actually posting this in good faith. Right now this is “pulled out of my butt with no evidence whatsoever” and simply not credible.
  - clipsy 1y ago
    If you're being serious, I'd like to see actual data on what percentage of MAID-eligible patients are having MAID "pushed" on them, along with a clear definition of what "pushed" means.
    - johnnienaked 1y ago
      Isn't one too many?
    - giraffe_lady 1y ago
      Well you're not going to get it, because the only institutions with the ability to create that data would not do it in that way. What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that?
      - squigz 1y ago
        > What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that? But these are separate issues, no? I mean, if we don't have MAID, the existing failings of our healthcare system won't just go away; they won't just magically get the support they need. Instead, they'll die anyway, probably in a painful way. Of course, for this discussion to be worth anything, we'd need more details. What does "support not being offered" mean, precisely? ..How many people is this actually happening to? And no, we can't just believe accounts posted on social media. And even if we did, are we going to get the other side of the story?
      - clipsy 1y ago
        > What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that? What you do have is a handful of anecdotes, to put it in more honest terms. What's fascinating to me is that the discussion of these anecdotes revolves around wanting to eliminate MAID rather than -- gosh, I don't know -- offering those necessary supports instead? The anecdote (in the article) about it being easier for "some people" to get MAID than to get a wheelchair makes for a great soundbite, but the people who quote it always seem more interested in eliminating MAID than in providing wheelchairs to those in need, for some odd reason.
        johnnienaked 1y ago
        Those handful of anecdotes are real human beings that experienced real things. Can't make an omellette though, right?
        giraffe_lady 1y ago
        Well see I've been part of this conversation longer than maid has been a thing. And it used to be "oh that won't happen, it'll only be for terminally ill people and with a high level of medical and psychological oversight." And so my position was that maid shouldn't become a thing until eg "providing wheelchairs" is fully accomplished. And now here we are. Maid is a thing, and people are being encouraged to do it while not being provided the alternatives they are asking for. And the numbers for how many are totally illegible but also somehow too low for you to be concerned with. My activism has long been more focused on getting people the care they need than opposing maid. But regardless people still don't always get the care they need and we have maid for them instead. We said it would be like this and it is like this.
  - pkilgore 1y ago
    More than zero and enough to demonstrate it's a systemic problem, say > 5%?
lotsofpulp 1y ago
> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one The only pushing I’m seeing is that by religious people onto non religious people, as usual.
- StanislavPetrov 1y ago
  Do you consider CBC "religious people"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    Video news is a poor source of information, highlighting outliers when full data distributions are needed to analyze the dynamics at play. One person’s account of what happened against an entity who is not allowed to discuss their side of the story is useless. And even if the whole account is accurate, it is not sufficient to stand in as proof of a nation’s protocol.
gwerbret 1y ago
> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. I'm not really surprised. It looks like Canada's healthcare costs are growing exponentially, and are outstripping growth in GDP. These costs are mostly driven by hospitalizations. If a government can carefully promote the message that hospitalization means suffering, suffering is hard, a life with suffering is not worth living, and that relief is quick and easy, then a route is charted to a reduction in healthcare expense. It would certainly help if the large physician organizations are on board, and the nation's major broadcasters lean into euthanasia-friendly messaging.
- aceofspades19 1y ago
  What is the source that the healthcare costs are growing "exponentially" and are outstripping growth in GDP? I would accept that its increased but definitely not exponentially. As well, I live in Canada and have not seen any such messaging that you have said.
  - gwerbret 1y ago
    > What is the source that the healthcare costs are growing "exponentially" and are outstripping growth in GDP? See here, in particular the first figure: https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-2024-snapshot https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-20... And here (slightly dated, but still valid): https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/sustainability-of-health-care-spending-in-canada-2017 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/sustainability-of-he... > I live in Canada and have not seen any such messaging that you have said. Here's a not-particularly-subtle example: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/maid-medical-assistance-in-dying-new-brunswick-1.7491714 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/maid-medical-as...
    - aceofspades19 1y ago
      Neither of those links give us evidence of "exponential" growth as one would normally define exponential growth. I did agree that it definitely has increased, just not exponentially. As well, the first link demonstrates that the GDP has increased greater than the healthcare expenditure. Only in the "forecast ed" area does it outstrip GDP as an annual percentage. If you search the CBC, they have articles both for and against MAID. I think its kind of silly to say that all positive news articles about MAID is government propaganda as there is likely to be a non-zero amount of positive experiences with it. Should the government not allow the press to make any comments on MAID to avoid biasing anyone for, or against it? For example, here is a negative video the CBC posted about MAID: https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6521196 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6521196
squigz 1y ago
Are those "other options" going to be "sitting here and dying naturally, maybe drowning in your own vomit, maybe dying of starvation"? I have a hard time believe things are going down like, "You have cancer. We can treat it and you'd be fine, but you know what you should do instead? Kill yourself" On the other hand, I do believe (and want) doctors to be like, "You have cancer. We can treat it and you might get a few more months with very poor quality of life. You may wish to consider these other options"
- tsol 1y ago
  It's not always the way you imagine it will be. I've posted this in this thread already but it seems most people haven't seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI This veteran seeks help and isn't able to get what she needs. What she is offered is MAID. That's the reality; sick people who aren't getting medical care are offered the comparatively cheaper option of death and it's very insulting for them.

clipsy 1y ago

> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. How many examples? What percentage of patients eligible for MAID receive such treatment?

flappyeagle 1y ago
how many would you like?
- TylerE 1y ago
  Well, some sort of source of any kind would be a start if you’re actually posting this in good faith. Right now this is “pulled out of my butt with no evidence whatsoever” and simply not credible.
- clipsy 1y ago
  If you're being serious, I'd like to see actual data on what percentage of MAID-eligible patients are having MAID "pushed" on them, along with a clear definition of what "pushed" means.
  - johnnienaked 1y ago
    Isn't one too many?
  - giraffe_lady 1y ago
    Well you're not going to get it, because the only institutions with the ability to create that data would not do it in that way. What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that?
    - squigz 1y ago
      > What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that? But these are separate issues, no? I mean, if we don't have MAID, the existing failings of our healthcare system won't just go away; they won't just magically get the support they need. Instead, they'll die anyway, probably in a painful way. Of course, for this discussion to be worth anything, we'd need more details. What does "support not being offered" mean, precisely? ..How many people is this actually happening to? And no, we can't just believe accounts posted on social media. And even if we did, are we going to get the other side of the story?
    - clipsy 1y ago
      > What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that? What you do have is a handful of anecdotes, to put it in more honest terms. What's fascinating to me is that the discussion of these anecdotes revolves around wanting to eliminate MAID rather than -- gosh, I don't know -- offering those necessary supports instead? The anecdote (in the article) about it being easier for "some people" to get MAID than to get a wheelchair makes for a great soundbite, but the people who quote it always seem more interested in eliminating MAID than in providing wheelchairs to those in need, for some odd reason.
      - johnnienaked 1y ago
        Those handful of anecdotes are real human beings that experienced real things. Can't make an omellette though, right?
      - giraffe_lady 1y ago
        Well see I've been part of this conversation longer than maid has been a thing. And it used to be "oh that won't happen, it'll only be for terminally ill people and with a high level of medical and psychological oversight." And so my position was that maid shouldn't become a thing until eg "providing wheelchairs" is fully accomplished. And now here we are. Maid is a thing, and people are being encouraged to do it while not being provided the alternatives they are asking for. And the numbers for how many are totally illegible but also somehow too low for you to be concerned with. My activism has long been more focused on getting people the care they need than opposing maid. But regardless people still don't always get the care they need and we have maid for them instead. We said it would be like this and it is like this.
- pkilgore 1y ago
  More than zero and enough to demonstrate it's a systemic problem, say > 5%?

lotsofpulp 1y ago

> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one The only pushing I’m seeing is that by religious people onto non religious people, as usual.

StanislavPetrov 1y ago
Do you consider CBC "religious people"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  Video news is a poor source of information, highlighting outliers when full data distributions are needed to analyze the dynamics at play. One person’s account of what happened against an entity who is not allowed to discuss their side of the story is useless. And even if the whole account is accurate, it is not sufficient to stand in as proof of a nation’s protocol.

gwerbret 1y ago

> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. I'm not really surprised. It looks like Canada's healthcare costs are growing exponentially, and are outstripping growth in GDP. These costs are mostly driven by hospitalizations. If a government can carefully promote the message that hospitalization means suffering, suffering is hard, a life with suffering is not worth living, and that relief is quick and easy, then a route is charted to a reduction in healthcare expense. It would certainly help if the large physician organizations are on board, and the nation's major broadcasters lean into euthanasia-friendly messaging.

aceofspades19 1y ago
What is the source that the healthcare costs are growing "exponentially" and are outstripping growth in GDP? I would accept that its increased but definitely not exponentially. As well, I live in Canada and have not seen any such messaging that you have said.
- gwerbret 1y ago
  > What is the source that the healthcare costs are growing "exponentially" and are outstripping growth in GDP? See here, in particular the first figure: https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-2024-snapshot https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-20... And here (slightly dated, but still valid): https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/sustainability-of-health-care-spending-in-canada-2017 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/sustainability-of-he... > I live in Canada and have not seen any such messaging that you have said. Here's a not-particularly-subtle example: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/maid-medical-assistance-in-dying-new-brunswick-1.7491714 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/maid-medical-as...
  - aceofspades19 1y ago
    Neither of those links give us evidence of "exponential" growth as one would normally define exponential growth. I did agree that it definitely has increased, just not exponentially. As well, the first link demonstrates that the GDP has increased greater than the healthcare expenditure. Only in the "forecast ed" area does it outstrip GDP as an annual percentage. If you search the CBC, they have articles both for and against MAID. I think its kind of silly to say that all positive news articles about MAID is government propaganda as there is likely to be a non-zero amount of positive experiences with it. Should the government not allow the press to make any comments on MAID to avoid biasing anyone for, or against it? For example, here is a negative video the CBC posted about MAID: https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6521196 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6521196

squigz 1y ago

Are those "other options" going to be "sitting here and dying naturally, maybe drowning in your own vomit, maybe dying of starvation"? I have a hard time believe things are going down like, "You have cancer. We can treat it and you'd be fine, but you know what you should do instead? Kill yourself" On the other hand, I do believe (and want) doctors to be like, "You have cancer. We can treat it and you might get a few more months with very poor quality of life. You may wish to consider these other options"

tsol 1y ago
It's not always the way you imagine it will be. I've posted this in this thread already but it seems most people haven't seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI This veteran seeks help and isn't able to get what she needs. What she is offered is MAID. That's the reality; sick people who aren't getting medical care are offered the comparatively cheaper option of death and it's very insulting for them.