6 ms·

MAID in Canada

61 points by surprisetalk 1y ago

billy99k 1y ago
It has little to do with religion. There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. It's also a way for collapsing government-run healthcare to save money.
- clipsy 1y ago
  > There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. How many examples? What percentage of patients eligible for MAID receive such treatment?
  - flappyeagle 1y ago
    how many would you like?
    - TylerE 1y ago
      Well, some sort of source of any kind would be a start if you’re actually posting this in good faith. Right now this is “pulled out of my butt with no evidence whatsoever” and simply not credible.
    - clipsy 1y ago
      If you're being serious, I'd like to see actual data on what percentage of MAID-eligible patients are having MAID "pushed" on them, along with a clear definition of what "pushed" means.
      - johnnienaked 1y ago
        Isn't one too many?
      - giraffe_lady 1y ago
        Well you're not going to get it, because the only institutions with the ability to create that data would not do it in that way. What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that?
        squigz 1y ago
        > What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that? But these are separate issues, no? I mean, if we don't have MAID, the existing failings of our healthcare system won't just go away; they won't just magically get the support they need. Instead, they'll die anyway, probably in a painful way. Of course, for this discussion to be worth anything, we'd need more details. What does "support not being offered" mean, precisely? ..How many people is this actually happening to? And no, we can't just believe accounts posted on social media. And even if we did, are we going to get the other side of the story?
        clipsy 1y ago
        > What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that? What you do have is a handful of anecdotes, to put it in more honest terms. What's fascinating to me is that the discussion of these anecdotes revolves around wanting to eliminate MAID rather than -- gosh, I don't know -- offering those necessary supports instead? The anecdote (in the article) about it being easier for "some people" to get MAID than to get a wheelchair makes for a great soundbite, but the people who quote it always seem more interested in eliminating MAID than in providing wheelchairs to those in need, for some odd reason.
        johnnienaked 1y ago
        Those handful of anecdotes are real human beings that experienced real things. Can't make an omellette though, right?
    - pkilgore 1y ago
      More than zero and enough to demonstrate it's a systemic problem, say > 5%?
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  > There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one The only pushing I’m seeing is that by religious people onto non religious people, as usual.
  - StanislavPetrov 1y ago
    Do you consider CBC "religious people"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
      Video news is a poor source of information, highlighting outliers when full data distributions are needed to analyze the dynamics at play. One person’s account of what happened against an entity who is not allowed to discuss their side of the story is useless. And even if the whole account is accurate, it is not sufficient to stand in as proof of a nation’s protocol.
- gwerbret 1y ago
  > There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. I'm not really surprised. It looks like Canada's healthcare costs are growing exponentially, and are outstripping growth in GDP. These costs are mostly driven by hospitalizations. If a government can carefully promote the message that hospitalization means suffering, suffering is hard, a life with suffering is not worth living, and that relief is quick and easy, then a route is charted to a reduction in healthcare expense. It would certainly help if the large physician organizations are on board, and the nation's major broadcasters lean into euthanasia-friendly messaging.
  - aceofspades19 1y ago
    What is the source that the healthcare costs are growing "exponentially" and are outstripping growth in GDP? I would accept that its increased but definitely not exponentially. As well, I live in Canada and have not seen any such messaging that you have said.
    - gwerbret 1y ago
      > What is the source that the healthcare costs are growing "exponentially" and are outstripping growth in GDP? See here, in particular the first figure: https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-2024-snapshot https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-20... And here (slightly dated, but still valid): https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/sustainability-of-health-care-spending-in-canada-2017 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/sustainability-of-he... > I live in Canada and have not seen any such messaging that you have said. Here's a not-particularly-subtle example: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/maid-medical-assistance-in-dying-new-brunswick-1.7491714 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/maid-medical-as...
      - aceofspades19 1y ago
        Neither of those links give us evidence of "exponential" growth as one would normally define exponential growth. I did agree that it definitely has increased, just not exponentially. As well, the first link demonstrates that the GDP has increased greater than the healthcare expenditure. Only in the "forecast ed" area does it outstrip GDP as an annual percentage. If you search the CBC, they have articles both for and against MAID. I think its kind of silly to say that all positive news articles about MAID is government propaganda as there is likely to be a non-zero amount of positive experiences with it. Should the government not allow the press to make any comments on MAID to avoid biasing anyone for, or against it? For example, here is a negative video the CBC posted about MAID: https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6521196 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6521196
- squigz 1y ago
  Are those "other options" going to be "sitting here and dying naturally, maybe drowning in your own vomit, maybe dying of starvation"? I have a hard time believe things are going down like, "You have cancer. We can treat it and you'd be fine, but you know what you should do instead? Kill yourself" On the other hand, I do believe (and want) doctors to be like, "You have cancer. We can treat it and you might get a few more months with very poor quality of life. You may wish to consider these other options"
  - tsol 1y ago
    It's not always the way you imagine it will be. I've posted this in this thread already but it seems most people haven't seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI This veteran seeks help and isn't able to get what she needs. What she is offered is MAID. That's the reality; sick people who aren't getting medical care are offered the comparatively cheaper option of death and it's very insulting for them.
scosman 1y ago
I don't follow the author's logic. They seem to assume anyone choosing MAID has been failed by the healthcare system. While that's certainly possible for some of cases, every single person eventually reaches a point where their health is failing. Many know in well enough advance, and in Canada you can choose to decide when/how to end things. The health care system can and should be improved, but there will always be people choosing MAID regardless. We should use a different measure for how to improve healthcare, and not falsely correlate MAID as a failure metric.
- jsbg 1y ago
  according to chatgpt, 25% of people die of cancer in canada; presumably dying of cancer is a lot worse than MAID so one might expect this number to grow beyond 5% unless there are just that many people that object to it for themselves on philosophical grounds
  - sn0wf1re 1y ago
    According to StatsCan it is actually a bit more, but varying year-to-year. Pre-Covid it looks like it was closer to 27% or 28%, now closer to 26%. So a lot of room to grow, if we made the assumption that all those dying of cancer would prefer to choose their date of passing. Personally, I think the more immediate source of growth in the number of MAID administrations should come from those who died after requesting MAID but before MAID was able to be administered, which would give an increase of 19% in administrations. Statistics Canada. Table 13-10-0392-01 Deaths and age-specific mortality rates, by selected grouped causes https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1310039201 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=131003... https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2023.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications...
  - tlavoie 1y ago
    Do you have an actual source? I'm not saying these numbers are wrong, but anything started with, "according to chatgpt" has already lost the plot.
- 1y ago
deleted 1y ago
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joshdavham 1y ago
As a Canadian, I’ve witnessed a perfect polarization of opinions among the people I’ve talked to about MAID. So far, every Christian I’ve talked to about MAID is against it while every non-Christian is either for it, or has a neutral attitude about it.
- squigz 1y ago
  In my experience, the line is between "people who have seen a family member die a horrible, painful, prolonged death" and those who haven't. The former group tends to be very passionately in favor of it.
  - giraffe_lady 1y ago
    It's really not that simple in my experience. Younger disabled people are generally against it as well, they rightfully have their guard up about things that look like eugenics.
    - squigz 1y ago
      I'm a younger disabled person (severe visual impairment, autism, ADHD, and some other things) that is very much in favor of it. Thinking this is akin to eugenics is silly and not doing anyone any good.
      - johnnienaked 1y ago
        Why is it silly? Did you know the Nazi regime used extremely similar empathetic language to justify their T4 euthanasia program?
    - clipsy 1y ago
      > It's really not that simple in my experience. Younger disabled people are generally against it as well, they rightfully have their guard up about things that look like eugenics. Apologies for sounding like a broken record here, but do you have anything other than anecdotes to support the claim that younger disabled people are generally against MAID?
pj_mukh 1y ago
I think any article that cites assisted suicide statistics without breaking it down by Track 1 vs Track 2, should not be taken seriously. The author cites 5% as the “number too high” but as someone who’s had a family member who’s been through the MAiD system, Track 2 is pretty difficult to get so I would t be surprised if most of that 5% is Track 1, but we wouldn’t know from this article.
- pkilgore 1y ago
  The vast majority of MAID provisions (95.9%; n=14,721) were for individuals in Track 1; 4.1% (n=622) of MAID provisions were for individuals in Track 2. (See Section 2) [1] [1] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2023.html#a1.3 https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications...
jasoneckert 1y ago
"One of the things it means to be Canadian is to honour the rights and wishes of other people. That’s part of what makes it a wonderful place to live: most people genuinely believe in equality and respect for others, including people who don’t look like them." In my opinion, this drives the narrative in this article, and is at the root of why there is little stigma in Canada surrounding MAID.
- johnnienaked 1y ago
  There is little stigma because Canadians are terrified of making a moral stand on absolutely anything that has been condoned by the state
neom 1y ago
Here is the 2023 (latest) government report on MAID in Canada. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2023.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications...
14 1y ago
The vast majority of people choosing maid are those who enter hospice and wish to go peacefully before their terminal illness degrades their life to a state of loss of bodily control and pain.
- JoshPurtell 1y ago
  34% are between 18 and 65
  - jmacd 1y ago
    The median age for MAID recipients is over 77.
    - JoshPurtell 1y ago
      50% is not a vast majority, so that's a red herring
      - johnnienaked 1y ago
        50% can be a massive majority if there is a plethora of opinions
    - HardCodedBias 1y ago
      Both can be true, I think.
  - clipsy 1y ago
    Being between 18 and 65 does not mean you're in good health, sadly.
  - jmye 1y ago
    What does that have to do with the post you replied to? Is your implication that young people can’t enter hospice or have terminal illness? Or are we just quoting random statistics without any regard to relevance whatsoever?
pkilgore 1y ago
If you've ever seen someone die slowly in hospice or in hospital having spent the last 5-10 years in misery, of a chronic diseases with cures beyond our ken, you question will be.... only 5%?
macinjosh 1y ago
Legalizing medically assisted suicide is fine. w/e Forcing others to contribute to funding and carrying it out through taxes is not. It should only be offered when patients ask for it. Some sick people are already depressed and feel like a burden we shouldn't put ideas in their heads.
- wvenable 1y ago
  > Forcing others to contribute to funding and carrying it out through taxes is not. How else is it supposed to work? > Some sick people are already depressed and feel like a burden we shouldn't put ideas in their heads. You sound like you think there isn't an entire system of checks and balances around this but, of course, there is.
  - arduanika 1y ago
    > How else is it supposed to work? Like literally any other good or service.
    - wvenable 1y ago
      I think it's best that we keep any profit motive out of this. It certainly doesn't work for health care.
      - arduanika 1y ago
        This is not health care. Not in any sense that Hippocrates would cosign.
        wvenable 1y ago
        We consider it health care for our pets.
        greygoo222 1y ago
        Hippocrates didn't actually write the Hippocratic Oath, which, if this matters to you, also forbids abortion.
HardCodedBias 1y ago
About 18 months ago in Quebec, my aunt, who was terminally ill with cancer, had to go to the hospital for severe pain. I had a phone call with her just before she went in, and while the idea of suicide had come up occasionally, usually during bouts of sundowning, it wasn't her focus at that moment. Once she was in the hospital's care, she was offered a permanent solution to her suffering. After a seemingly normal visit with her sisters that night, she died by assisted suicide the next morning. Her sisters were shocked and devastated. While I think people should be free to choose, I don't know how much information hospital staff should be able to give. Difficult. Edit: I'm not 100% certain as to the timeline. She may have been in the hospital for 2 days.
- aceofspades19 1y ago
  Here is the procedure for MAID: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-servi... You have to have 2 independent medical assessments at a minimum as well as written consent that is witnessed. So its not like you can just say you want to do it and then they just off you right there. She could have had all sorts of reasons for not telling anyone including her sisters. There's nothing in your anecdote that disputes she could have planned it long in advance and just not told anyone.
  - HardCodedBias 1y ago
    "There's nothing in your anecdote that disputes she could have planned it long in advance" It seems implausible. She lived with her sisters and while she was quite capable of many tasks, I think that long term subterfuge was beyond her. She was well into mental decline. "You have to have 2 independent medical assessments at a minimum as well as written consent that is witnessed" Could this not have happened at the hospital?
    - aceofspades19 1y ago
      Well its impossible for us to know her state of mind, anything would be speculation. Yes, it could have happened at the hospital but do you think they have people sitting around waiting to do medical assessments and be witnesses just so they can push MAID onto people? At most hospitals the doctors and medical staff are extremely busy.
daft_pink 1y ago
What prevents someone from committing suicide this way?
- clipsy 1y ago
  If you mean, what would stop a random healthy person from walking into a hospital and getting MAID, the procedure is described in another post on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45021339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45021339
drgo 1y ago
As a physician, I can tell you that euthanasia has been always around in every society and at all times. MAID just made the arrangement formal. Before MAID, it was implemented by withdrawing life-saving treatments (usually due to side-effects), rising doses of narcotics (for painful conditions) or even "terminal sedation" (the most explicit form of euthanasia before MAID-like laws).(And of course, patients always had the option of taking their own lives). In any healthcare system, there has to come a point where patients (and their families) and their doctors decide to terminate efforts aimed at extending life. In most cases, MAID is just a way to shorten the unpleasant interval between that decision and death. Given all that, it is not that surprising that 5-7% of deaths are attributed to MAID. The debate about MAID is another example where a lot of otherwise rational people fall prey to misguided sloganeering.
- johnnienaked 1y ago
  No it hasn't. Euthanasia is illegal in most countries and almost always has been. Terminal sedation and intentional rising doses of narcotics would be considered ACTUAL murder in 100% of those cases where euthanasia is illegal. If you are a physician and don't know this you should be immediately investigated.
- troad 1y ago
  > The debate about MAID is another example where a lot of otherwise rational people fall prey to misguided sloganeering. This is the same level of argument as saying that people who vote for the other guys must have been tricked by FOX News / MSNBC / Russia / Tik Tok / transtrenders / tradwives, and if only they truly understood their actual self-interest they would agree with you on all things. It's a bad style of argumentation, albeit very popular in academia ('why do the poor keep voting wrong?'). There are legitimate reasons to oppose Canada's euthanasia program on its own terms, and it's not surprising the Canadian government has very carefully shielded MAID from any sort of public input or oversight, since it's deeply unlikely it would pass a majority vote in its current form. There is consistent public opposition to euthanasia being available to anyone but late-stage terminally-ill people (and even then, it's divisive at best). There is strong public opposition to euthanasia solely on the grounds of mental health. More broadly, I think people are increasingly sick of the misuse of the term 'healthcare' (or 'public health') to sneak unpopular or controversial policies past the electorate, and the idea of 'death as healthcare' is probably the most extreme example of this trend. When people cannot express democratic opposition to policies they deeply oppose, don't be surprised if you get pushback and populism.
johnnienaked 1y ago
I always thought the desire to bring a doctor in on suicide revealed a lot about how the person must really feel about it. I also remember that poor woman in Canada who died after being refused a kidney transplant because she wouldn't take the covid vaccine. Canada has got a lot of problems.
oliwarner 1y ago
This evil Track 2 still requires that a recipient of MAID have "grievous and irremediable medical condition". It requires informed consent and primary capacity. It's not a law to bump off demented old people. Limiting euthanasia to people with imminently terminal conditions is how you keep people in pain. The very best palliative care can still accompany suffering beyond anything a well and able person can begin to perceive. Mental healthcare and social care and all these perpetually under-funded margins do need to be improved. MAID is not the preventative healthcare that we all need throughout our lives, but we need to be honest about the balance. Is it worse to end life prematurely for the "wrong" reasons, or to make someone suffer for the "right" reasons? This is dirty ethics. Get out the way and let people decide for themselves.
_zagj 1y ago
> Canadian officials acknowledged these concerns — “We know that in some places in our country, it’s easier to access MAID than it is to get a wheelchair,” Let alone a wheelchair ramp, apparently, even if you're a veteran: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted... > A paraplegic former member of the Canadian military shocked MPs on Thursday by testifying that the Department of Veterans Affairs offered her, in writing, the opportunity for a medically assisted death — and even offered to provide the equipment. > Retired corporal Christine Gauthier, who competed for Canada at the 2016 Rio de Janeiro Paralympics and the Invictus Games that same year, spoke before the House of Commons veterans committee and agreed to provide a copy of the letter. > "With respect to me, I have a letter in my file, because I had to face that as well," said Gauthier, referring to the debate about veterans being offered the option of medical assistance in dying (MAID). > "I have a letter saying that if you're so desperate, madam, we can offer you MAID, medical assistance in dying," said Gauthier who first injured her back in a training accident in 1989. > Testifying in French, she said she has been fighting for a home wheelchair ramp for five years and expressed her concerns about the assisted dying offer in a recent letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

61 points by surprisetalk 1y ago

It has little to do with religion. There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. It's also a way for collapsing government-run healthcare to save money.

clipsy 1y ago
> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. How many examples? What percentage of patients eligible for MAID receive such treatment?
- flappyeagle 1y ago
  how many would you like?
  - TylerE 1y ago
    Well, some sort of source of any kind would be a start if you’re actually posting this in good faith. Right now this is “pulled out of my butt with no evidence whatsoever” and simply not credible.
  - clipsy 1y ago
    If you're being serious, I'd like to see actual data on what percentage of MAID-eligible patients are having MAID "pushed" on them, along with a clear definition of what "pushed" means.
    - johnnienaked 1y ago
      Isn't one too many?
    - giraffe_lady 1y ago
      Well you're not going to get it, because the only institutions with the ability to create that data would not do it in that way. What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that?
      - squigz 1y ago
        > What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that? But these are separate issues, no? I mean, if we don't have MAID, the existing failings of our healthcare system won't just go away; they won't just magically get the support they need. Instead, they'll die anyway, probably in a painful way. Of course, for this discussion to be worth anything, we'd need more details. What does "support not being offered" mean, precisely? ..How many people is this actually happening to? And no, we can't just believe accounts posted on social media. And even if we did, are we going to get the other side of the story?
      - clipsy 1y ago
        > What we do have is the words of people saying they do not wish to die, but are taking MAID due to necessary supports not being offered instead. What percentage would you consider too high for that? What you do have is a handful of anecdotes, to put it in more honest terms. What's fascinating to me is that the discussion of these anecdotes revolves around wanting to eliminate MAID rather than -- gosh, I don't know -- offering those necessary supports instead? The anecdote (in the article) about it being easier for "some people" to get MAID than to get a wheelchair makes for a great soundbite, but the people who quote it always seem more interested in eliminating MAID than in providing wheelchairs to those in need, for some odd reason.
        johnnienaked 1y ago
        Those handful of anecdotes are real human beings that experienced real things. Can't make an omellette though, right?
  - pkilgore 1y ago
    More than zero and enough to demonstrate it's a systemic problem, say > 5%?
lotsofpulp 1y ago
> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one The only pushing I’m seeing is that by religious people onto non religious people, as usual.
- StanislavPetrov 1y ago
  Do you consider CBC "religious people"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    Video news is a poor source of information, highlighting outliers when full data distributions are needed to analyze the dynamics at play. One person’s account of what happened against an entity who is not allowed to discuss their side of the story is useless. And even if the whole account is accurate, it is not sufficient to stand in as proof of a nation’s protocol.
gwerbret 1y ago
> There are lots of examples of MAID being pushed upon people that do have other options and made to feel like it's the only one. I'm not really surprised. It looks like Canada's healthcare costs are growing exponentially, and are outstripping growth in GDP. These costs are mostly driven by hospitalizations. If a government can carefully promote the message that hospitalization means suffering, suffering is hard, a life with suffering is not worth living, and that relief is quick and easy, then a route is charted to a reduction in healthcare expense. It would certainly help if the large physician organizations are on board, and the nation's major broadcasters lean into euthanasia-friendly messaging.
- aceofspades19 1y ago
  What is the source that the healthcare costs are growing "exponentially" and are outstripping growth in GDP? I would accept that its increased but definitely not exponentially. As well, I live in Canada and have not seen any such messaging that you have said.
  - gwerbret 1y ago
    > What is the source that the healthcare costs are growing "exponentially" and are outstripping growth in GDP? See here, in particular the first figure: https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-2024-snapshot https://www.cihi.ca/en/national-health-expenditure-trends-20... And here (slightly dated, but still valid): https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/sustainability-of-health-care-spending-in-canada-2017 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/sustainability-of-he... > I live in Canada and have not seen any such messaging that you have said. Here's a not-particularly-subtle example: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/maid-medical-assistance-in-dying-new-brunswick-1.7491714 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/maid-medical-as...
    - aceofspades19 1y ago
      Neither of those links give us evidence of "exponential" growth as one would normally define exponential growth. I did agree that it definitely has increased, just not exponentially. As well, the first link demonstrates that the GDP has increased greater than the healthcare expenditure. Only in the "forecast ed" area does it outstrip GDP as an annual percentage. If you search the CBC, they have articles both for and against MAID. I think its kind of silly to say that all positive news articles about MAID is government propaganda as there is likely to be a non-zero amount of positive experiences with it. Should the government not allow the press to make any comments on MAID to avoid biasing anyone for, or against it? For example, here is a negative video the CBC posted about MAID: https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6521196 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6521196
squigz 1y ago
Are those "other options" going to be "sitting here and dying naturally, maybe drowning in your own vomit, maybe dying of starvation"? I have a hard time believe things are going down like, "You have cancer. We can treat it and you'd be fine, but you know what you should do instead? Kill yourself" On the other hand, I do believe (and want) doctors to be like, "You have cancer. We can treat it and you might get a few more months with very poor quality of life. You may wish to consider these other options"
- tsol 1y ago
  It's not always the way you imagine it will be. I've posted this in this thread already but it seems most people haven't seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3AJ3W_sbI This veteran seeks help and isn't able to get what she needs. What she is offered is MAID. That's the reality; sick people who aren't getting medical care are offered the comparatively cheaper option of death and it's very insulting for them.

scosman 1y ago

I don't follow the author's logic. They seem to assume anyone choosing MAID has been failed by the healthcare system. While that's certainly possible for some of cases, every single person eventually reaches a point where their health is failing. Many know in well enough advance, and in Canada you can choose to decide when/how to end things. The health care system can and should be improved, but there will always be people choosing MAID regardless. We should use a different measure for how to improve healthcare, and not falsely correlate MAID as a failure metric.

jsbg 1y ago
according to chatgpt, 25% of people die of cancer in canada; presumably dying of cancer is a lot worse than MAID so one might expect this number to grow beyond 5% unless there are just that many people that object to it for themselves on philosophical grounds
- sn0wf1re 1y ago
  According to StatsCan it is actually a bit more, but varying year-to-year. Pre-Covid it looks like it was closer to 27% or 28%, now closer to 26%. So a lot of room to grow, if we made the assumption that all those dying of cancer would prefer to choose their date of passing. Personally, I think the more immediate source of growth in the number of MAID administrations should come from those who died after requesting MAID but before MAID was able to be administered, which would give an increase of 19% in administrations. Statistics Canada. Table 13-10-0392-01 Deaths and age-specific mortality rates, by selected grouped causes https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1310039201 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=131003... https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2023.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications...
- tlavoie 1y ago
  Do you have an actual source? I'm not saying these numbers are wrong, but anything started with, "according to chatgpt" has already lost the plot.
1y ago

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joshdavham 1y ago

As a Canadian, I’ve witnessed a perfect polarization of opinions among the people I’ve talked to about MAID. So far, every Christian I’ve talked to about MAID is against it while every non-Christian is either for it, or has a neutral attitude about it.

squigz 1y ago
In my experience, the line is between "people who have seen a family member die a horrible, painful, prolonged death" and those who haven't. The former group tends to be very passionately in favor of it.
- giraffe_lady 1y ago
  It's really not that simple in my experience. Younger disabled people are generally against it as well, they rightfully have their guard up about things that look like eugenics.
  - squigz 1y ago
    I'm a younger disabled person (severe visual impairment, autism, ADHD, and some other things) that is very much in favor of it. Thinking this is akin to eugenics is silly and not doing anyone any good.
    - johnnienaked 1y ago
      Why is it silly? Did you know the Nazi regime used extremely similar empathetic language to justify their T4 euthanasia program?
  - clipsy 1y ago
    > It's really not that simple in my experience. Younger disabled people are generally against it as well, they rightfully have their guard up about things that look like eugenics. Apologies for sounding like a broken record here, but do you have anything other than anecdotes to support the claim that younger disabled people are generally against MAID?

pj_mukh 1y ago

I think any article that cites assisted suicide statistics without breaking it down by Track 1 vs Track 2, should not be taken seriously. The author cites 5% as the “number too high” but as someone who’s had a family member who’s been through the MAiD system, Track 2 is pretty difficult to get so I would t be surprised if most of that 5% is Track 1, but we wouldn’t know from this article.

pkilgore 1y ago
The vast majority of MAID provisions (95.9%; n=14,721) were for individuals in Track 1; 4.1% (n=622) of MAID provisions were for individuals in Track 2. (See Section 2) [1] [1] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2023.html#a1.3 https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications...

jasoneckert 1y ago

"One of the things it means to be Canadian is to honour the rights and wishes of other people. That’s part of what makes it a wonderful place to live: most people genuinely believe in equality and respect for others, including people who don’t look like them." In my opinion, this drives the narrative in this article, and is at the root of why there is little stigma in Canada surrounding MAID.

johnnienaked 1y ago
There is little stigma because Canadians are terrified of making a moral stand on absolutely anything that has been condoned by the state

neom 1y ago

Here is the 2023 (latest) government report on MAID in Canada. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2023.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications...

14 1y ago

The vast majority of people choosing maid are those who enter hospice and wish to go peacefully before their terminal illness degrades their life to a state of loss of bodily control and pain.

JoshPurtell 1y ago
34% are between 18 and 65
- jmacd 1y ago
  The median age for MAID recipients is over 77.
  - JoshPurtell 1y ago
    50% is not a vast majority, so that's a red herring
    - johnnienaked 1y ago
      50% can be a massive majority if there is a plethora of opinions
  - HardCodedBias 1y ago
    Both can be true, I think.
- clipsy 1y ago
  Being between 18 and 65 does not mean you're in good health, sadly.
- jmye 1y ago
  What does that have to do with the post you replied to? Is your implication that young people can’t enter hospice or have terminal illness? Or are we just quoting random statistics without any regard to relevance whatsoever?

pkilgore 1y ago

If you've ever seen someone die slowly in hospice or in hospital having spent the last 5-10 years in misery, of a chronic diseases with cures beyond our ken, you question will be.... only 5%?

macinjosh 1y ago

Legalizing medically assisted suicide is fine. w/e Forcing others to contribute to funding and carrying it out through taxes is not. It should only be offered when patients ask for it. Some sick people are already depressed and feel like a burden we shouldn't put ideas in their heads.

wvenable 1y ago
> Forcing others to contribute to funding and carrying it out through taxes is not. How else is it supposed to work? > Some sick people are already depressed and feel like a burden we shouldn't put ideas in their heads. You sound like you think there isn't an entire system of checks and balances around this but, of course, there is.
- arduanika 1y ago
  > How else is it supposed to work? Like literally any other good or service.
  - wvenable 1y ago
    I think it's best that we keep any profit motive out of this. It certainly doesn't work for health care.
    - arduanika 1y ago
      This is not health care. Not in any sense that Hippocrates would cosign.
      - wvenable 1y ago
        We consider it health care for our pets.
      - greygoo222 1y ago
        Hippocrates didn't actually write the Hippocratic Oath, which, if this matters to you, also forbids abortion.

HardCodedBias 1y ago

About 18 months ago in Quebec, my aunt, who was terminally ill with cancer, had to go to the hospital for severe pain. I had a phone call with her just before she went in, and while the idea of suicide had come up occasionally, usually during bouts of sundowning, it wasn't her focus at that moment. Once she was in the hospital's care, she was offered a permanent solution to her suffering. After a seemingly normal visit with her sisters that night, she died by assisted suicide the next morning. Her sisters were shocked and devastated. While I think people should be free to choose, I don't know how much information hospital staff should be able to give. Difficult. Edit: I'm not 100% certain as to the timeline. She may have been in the hospital for 2 days.

aceofspades19 1y ago
Here is the procedure for MAID: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-servi... You have to have 2 independent medical assessments at a minimum as well as written consent that is witnessed. So its not like you can just say you want to do it and then they just off you right there. She could have had all sorts of reasons for not telling anyone including her sisters. There's nothing in your anecdote that disputes she could have planned it long in advance and just not told anyone.
- HardCodedBias 1y ago
  "There's nothing in your anecdote that disputes she could have planned it long in advance" It seems implausible. She lived with her sisters and while she was quite capable of many tasks, I think that long term subterfuge was beyond her. She was well into mental decline. "You have to have 2 independent medical assessments at a minimum as well as written consent that is witnessed" Could this not have happened at the hospital?
  - aceofspades19 1y ago
    Well its impossible for us to know her state of mind, anything would be speculation. Yes, it could have happened at the hospital but do you think they have people sitting around waiting to do medical assessments and be witnesses just so they can push MAID onto people? At most hospitals the doctors and medical staff are extremely busy.

daft_pink 1y ago

What prevents someone from committing suicide this way?

clipsy 1y ago
If you mean, what would stop a random healthy person from walking into a hospital and getting MAID, the procedure is described in another post on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45021339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45021339

drgo 1y ago

As a physician, I can tell you that euthanasia has been always around in every society and at all times. MAID just made the arrangement formal. Before MAID, it was implemented by withdrawing life-saving treatments (usually due to side-effects), rising doses of narcotics (for painful conditions) or even "terminal sedation" (the most explicit form of euthanasia before MAID-like laws).(And of course, patients always had the option of taking their own lives). In any healthcare system, there has to come a point where patients (and their families) and their doctors decide to terminate efforts aimed at extending life. In most cases, MAID is just a way to shorten the unpleasant interval between that decision and death. Given all that, it is not that surprising that 5-7% of deaths are attributed to MAID. The debate about MAID is another example where a lot of otherwise rational people fall prey to misguided sloganeering.

johnnienaked 1y ago
No it hasn't. Euthanasia is illegal in most countries and almost always has been. Terminal sedation and intentional rising doses of narcotics would be considered ACTUAL murder in 100% of those cases where euthanasia is illegal. If you are a physician and don't know this you should be immediately investigated.
troad 1y ago
> The debate about MAID is another example where a lot of otherwise rational people fall prey to misguided sloganeering. This is the same level of argument as saying that people who vote for the other guys must have been tricked by FOX News / MSNBC / Russia / Tik Tok / transtrenders / tradwives, and if only they truly understood their actual self-interest they would agree with you on all things. It's a bad style of argumentation, albeit very popular in academia ('why do the poor keep voting wrong?'). There are legitimate reasons to oppose Canada's euthanasia program on its own terms, and it's not surprising the Canadian government has very carefully shielded MAID from any sort of public input or oversight, since it's deeply unlikely it would pass a majority vote in its current form. There is consistent public opposition to euthanasia being available to anyone but late-stage terminally-ill people (and even then, it's divisive at best). There is strong public opposition to euthanasia solely on the grounds of mental health. More broadly, I think people are increasingly sick of the misuse of the term 'healthcare' (or 'public health') to sneak unpopular or controversial policies past the electorate, and the idea of 'death as healthcare' is probably the most extreme example of this trend. When people cannot express democratic opposition to policies they deeply oppose, don't be surprised if you get pushback and populism.

johnnienaked 1y ago

I always thought the desire to bring a doctor in on suicide revealed a lot about how the person must really feel about it. I also remember that poor woman in Canada who died after being refused a kidney transplant because she wouldn't take the covid vaccine. Canada has got a lot of problems.

oliwarner 1y ago

This evil Track 2 still requires that a recipient of MAID have "grievous and irremediable medical condition". It requires informed consent and primary capacity. It's not a law to bump off demented old people. Limiting euthanasia to people with imminently terminal conditions is how you keep people in pain. The very best palliative care can still accompany suffering beyond anything a well and able person can begin to perceive. Mental healthcare and social care and all these perpetually under-funded margins do need to be improved. MAID is not the preventative healthcare that we all need throughout our lives, but we need to be honest about the balance. Is it worse to end life prematurely for the "wrong" reasons, or to make someone suffer for the "right" reasons? This is dirty ethics. Get out the way and let people decide for themselves.

_zagj 1y ago

> Canadian officials acknowledged these concerns — “We know that in some places in our country, it’s easier to access MAID than it is to get a wheelchair,” Let alone a wheelchair ramp, apparently, even if you're a veteran: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted... > A paraplegic former member of the Canadian military shocked MPs on Thursday by testifying that the Department of Veterans Affairs offered her, in writing, the opportunity for a medically assisted death — and even offered to provide the equipment. > Retired corporal Christine Gauthier, who competed for Canada at the 2016 Rio de Janeiro Paralympics and the Invictus Games that same year, spoke before the House of Commons veterans committee and agreed to provide a copy of the letter. > "With respect to me, I have a letter in my file, because I had to face that as well," said Gauthier, referring to the debate about veterans being offered the option of medical assistance in dying (MAID). > "I have a letter saying that if you're so desperate, madam, we can offer you MAID, medical assistance in dying," said Gauthier who first injured her back in a training accident in 1989. > Testifying in French, she said she has been fighting for a home wheelchair ramp for five years and expressed her concerns about the assisted dying offer in a recent letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.