3 ms·

I can't be the only one that simultaneously appreciates that IBM are still in the game but remains mystified as to who is actually buying and using this stuff.

I can't be the only one that simultaneously appreciates that IBM are still in the game but remains mystified as to who is actually buying and using this stuff. They simply have to have some farms in government running this to make it make sense.

vb-8448 1y ago
There are still plenty of IBM-I (formerly as400) and AIX installations around Europe.
- Someone 1y ago
  The statistic to look at is not how many there are, but how many get sold nowadays. Also, how does “plenty” compare to the millions (50 million or so, it seems from a quick search) x64s that Intel sells per year? Do they even sell 1% of that?
CursedSilicon 1y ago
On the low-end. Ever shopped at Costco? It's all IBM AS/400's handling the back-end. That's why all their Windows 11 PC's have big black and green terminal apps running front and center On the high-end? Banks, airports, hospitals, research labs. There's a lot of places that need the kind of fault tolerance that specifically IBM POWER systems provide EDIT: Okay, IBM POWER "systems". They've been described as mainframes to me so I went with that terminology
- gosub100 1y ago
  I seriously doubt there's a POWER mainframe in the back of Costco to handle the 3 UPC barcode scans per second. It's possible that every Costco store funnels its orders to a single mainframe somewhere. I think a more realistic case is the visa and MasterCard credit card networks that have almost 0% downtime.
  - dardeaup 1y ago
    No such thing as a POWER mainframe. IBM's POWER lines (i and p) are different from their mainframe line (z).
  - chiffre01 1y ago
    I think it's more likely they have a rack of IBM iSeries servers in the back someplace, or maybe in a colo data center.
  - CursedSilicon 1y ago
    Not a POWER Mainframe, no. But AS/400's come in many sizes. The smallest ones are roughly the size of a standard workstation
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      Back in 1994, they were small enough like a big PC tower, I used to seat on one occasionally, that was out of order. One of my Summer intern jobs was to run backups every few days on a AS/400 system. That "seat" was the old one that was yet to be collected.
      - RaftPeople 1y ago
        > Back in 1994, they were small enough like a big PC tower, Back then their model lineup ranged from the small size like you mention to approx 3 or 4 refrigerator size at the high end. When I did some system work out at Costco in the 90's they had 4 of the largest models connected together in one system image (sysplex I think).
        pjmlp 1y ago
        Indeed, never saw other sizes in real, only on magazine ads.
    - yencabulator 1y ago
      Just for completionism, two decades back the absolute smallest zSeries was a "rolling box", low and squat, that just barely fit into an office building elevator. Think of a short rack tipped on its side with wheels, but all a single computer. IBM loaned us one to port our Linux software to it. Normal zSeries are like a custom rack to multiple racks, except again all a single computer. The smallest iSeries I've seen was essentially an "oversize tower PC" form factor.
- wolf550e 1y ago
  "mainframes" are z/Architecture, not POWER.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- nabla9 1y ago
  IBM Z mainframes use Z processors and now Telum, Telum II processors, not POWER.
  - inkyoto 1y ago
    z Series have used both, POWER and TELUM (I and II) processors. For many years, the 64-bit extension of the original S/360/370/390 architecture was emulated in the software layer via the static binary translation – just like the i Series AS/400 have been doing since the inception, and there was no native S/360 implementation in silicon for a fairly long time. If my understanding is correct, with TELUM processors, IBM has gone back to implementing the ISA in silicon, although the available details on TELUM are scarce.
    - nabla9 1y ago
      Your understanding is not correct. IBM z15 mainframes had z15 chip now they have Tellum. z chips are their own line. z14, z13, ...
    - ch_123 1y ago
      This (and variations) is commonly believed but not the case - IBM's Z hardware has always used processors which natively implement the Z instruction set. I think part of the source of the confusion is a presentation from years ago which showed that some IP is shared between the Z and Power CPUs.
      - sillywalk 1y ago
        > a presentation from years ago which showed that some IP is shared between the Z and Power CPUs. The eCLIPz project, for the POWER6 & Z10[0]. "The z10 processor was co-developed with and shares many design traits with the POWER6 processor, such as fabrication technology, logic design, execution unit, floating-point units, bus technology (GX bus) and pipeline design style, i.e., a high frequency, low latency, deep (14 stages in the z10), in-order pipeline. However, the processors are quite dissimilar in other respects, such as cache hierarchy and coherency, SMP topology and protocol, and chip organization."[1] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18494225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18494225 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z10
nxobject 1y ago
For background to sibling comments - AS/400 aka "System i" was historically a separate line of processors, but is now POWER running a software translation layer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#TIMI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#TIMI To illustrate why the AS/400 had its market niche, the Cali Cartel had a very successful installation of an AS/400. Apparently they used it to do both "business analytics" and back-office tasks. https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-cartel-supercomputer-of-1994/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-cartel-supercomputer-of-...
- ch_123 1y ago
  > For background to sibling comments - AS/400 aka "System i" was historically a separate line of processors, but is now POWER running a software translation layer. The software translation layer has been a feature of the platform dating back to the System/38 days, and was specifically intended to allow the CPU architecture to change without breaking software compatibility. IBM i also has the "PASE" layer, which is a binary compatibility layer for AIX. Those applications do not use the translation layer.
dlcarrier 1y ago
It's more beuroacracies in general than government in particular.
pram 1y ago
People stuck on DB2 is the answer.
nine_k 1y ago
Google used to use POWER9 chips, but they apparently have stopped. I suppose the military should buy a significant amount, because they require 100% US-based development and manufacture.
- sidkshatriya 1y ago
  Power chips are made by Samsung according to the article. The fab for that is probably in Korea.
DebtDeflation 1y ago
There used to be stories about small manufacturing companies that bought AS/400s in the early 1990s, installed them in their factories, then at some point there was construction and walls were built around them, and then they were discovered 20+ years later, still running, when they were upgrading their production lines and trying to figure out what was actually running them.

vb-8448 1y ago

There are still plenty of IBM-I (formerly as400) and AIX installations around Europe.

Someone 1y ago
The statistic to look at is not how many there are, but how many get sold nowadays. Also, how does “plenty” compare to the millions (50 million or so, it seems from a quick search) x64s that Intel sells per year? Do they even sell 1% of that?

CursedSilicon 1y ago

On the low-end. Ever shopped at Costco? It's all IBM AS/400's handling the back-end. That's why all their Windows 11 PC's have big black and green terminal apps running front and center On the high-end? Banks, airports, hospitals, research labs. There's a lot of places that need the kind of fault tolerance that specifically IBM POWER systems provide EDIT: Okay, IBM POWER "systems". They've been described as mainframes to me so I went with that terminology

gosub100 1y ago
I seriously doubt there's a POWER mainframe in the back of Costco to handle the 3 UPC barcode scans per second. It's possible that every Costco store funnels its orders to a single mainframe somewhere. I think a more realistic case is the visa and MasterCard credit card networks that have almost 0% downtime.
- dardeaup 1y ago
  No such thing as a POWER mainframe. IBM's POWER lines (i and p) are different from their mainframe line (z).
- chiffre01 1y ago
  I think it's more likely they have a rack of IBM iSeries servers in the back someplace, or maybe in a colo data center.
- CursedSilicon 1y ago
  Not a POWER Mainframe, no. But AS/400's come in many sizes. The smallest ones are roughly the size of a standard workstation
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Back in 1994, they were small enough like a big PC tower, I used to seat on one occasionally, that was out of order. One of my Summer intern jobs was to run backups every few days on a AS/400 system. That "seat" was the old one that was yet to be collected.
    - RaftPeople 1y ago
      > Back in 1994, they were small enough like a big PC tower, Back then their model lineup ranged from the small size like you mention to approx 3 or 4 refrigerator size at the high end. When I did some system work out at Costco in the 90's they had 4 of the largest models connected together in one system image (sysplex I think).
      - pjmlp 1y ago
        Indeed, never saw other sizes in real, only on magazine ads.
  - yencabulator 1y ago
    Just for completionism, two decades back the absolute smallest zSeries was a "rolling box", low and squat, that just barely fit into an office building elevator. Think of a short rack tipped on its side with wheels, but all a single computer. IBM loaned us one to port our Linux software to it. Normal zSeries are like a custom rack to multiple racks, except again all a single computer. The smallest iSeries I've seen was essentially an "oversize tower PC" form factor.
wolf550e 1y ago
"mainframes" are z/Architecture, not POWER.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
nabla9 1y ago
IBM Z mainframes use Z processors and now Telum, Telum II processors, not POWER.
- inkyoto 1y ago
  z Series have used both, POWER and TELUM (I and II) processors. For many years, the 64-bit extension of the original S/360/370/390 architecture was emulated in the software layer via the static binary translation – just like the i Series AS/400 have been doing since the inception, and there was no native S/360 implementation in silicon for a fairly long time. If my understanding is correct, with TELUM processors, IBM has gone back to implementing the ISA in silicon, although the available details on TELUM are scarce.
  - nabla9 1y ago
    Your understanding is not correct. IBM z15 mainframes had z15 chip now they have Tellum. z chips are their own line. z14, z13, ...
  - ch_123 1y ago
    This (and variations) is commonly believed but not the case - IBM's Z hardware has always used processors which natively implement the Z instruction set. I think part of the source of the confusion is a presentation from years ago which showed that some IP is shared between the Z and Power CPUs.
    - sillywalk 1y ago
      > a presentation from years ago which showed that some IP is shared between the Z and Power CPUs. The eCLIPz project, for the POWER6 & Z10[0]. "The z10 processor was co-developed with and shares many design traits with the POWER6 processor, such as fabrication technology, logic design, execution unit, floating-point units, bus technology (GX bus) and pipeline design style, i.e., a high frequency, low latency, deep (14 stages in the z10), in-order pipeline. However, the processors are quite dissimilar in other respects, such as cache hierarchy and coherency, SMP topology and protocol, and chip organization."[1] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18494225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18494225 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z10

nxobject 1y ago

For background to sibling comments - AS/400 aka "System i" was historically a separate line of processors, but is now POWER running a software translation layer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#TIMI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#TIMI To illustrate why the AS/400 had its market niche, the Cali Cartel had a very successful installation of an AS/400. Apparently they used it to do both "business analytics" and back-office tasks. https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-cartel-supercomputer-of-1994/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-cartel-supercomputer-of-...

ch_123 1y ago
> For background to sibling comments - AS/400 aka "System i" was historically a separate line of processors, but is now POWER running a software translation layer. The software translation layer has been a feature of the platform dating back to the System/38 days, and was specifically intended to allow the CPU architecture to change without breaking software compatibility. IBM i also has the "PASE" layer, which is a binary compatibility layer for AIX. Those applications do not use the translation layer.

dlcarrier 1y ago

It's more beuroacracies in general than government in particular.

pram 1y ago

People stuck on DB2 is the answer.

nine_k 1y ago

Google used to use POWER9 chips, but they apparently have stopped. I suppose the military should buy a significant amount, because they require 100% US-based development and manufacture.

sidkshatriya 1y ago
Power chips are made by Samsung according to the article. The fab for that is probably in Korea.

DebtDeflation 1y ago

There used to be stories about small manufacturing companies that bought AS/400s in the early 1990s, installed them in their factories, then at some point there was construction and walls were built around them, and then they were discovered 20+ years later, still running, when they were upgrading their production lines and trying to figure out what was actually running them.