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I think Metzinger nailed it, we aren't conscious at all. We confuse the map for the territory in thinking the model we build to predict our other models is us.
by galangalalgol 1y ago
I think Metzinger nailed it, we aren't conscious at all. We confuse the map for the territory in thinking the model we build to predict our other models is us. We are a collection of models a few of which create the illusion of consciousness. Someone is going to connect a handful of already existing models in a way that gives an AI the same illusion sooner rather than later. That will be an interesting day.
- EMIRELADERO 1y agoI don't see how your explanation leads to consciousness not being a thing. Consciousness is whatever process/mechanisms there are that as a whole produce our subjective experience and all its sensations, including but not limited to touch, vision, smell, taste, pain, etc.
- frabcus 1y agoYou've missed our consciousness of our inner experiences. They are more varied than just perception at the footlights of our consciousness (cf Hurlburt): Imagination, inner voice, emotion, unsymbolized conceptual thinking as well as (our reconstructed view of our) perception.
- EMIRELADERO 1y agoTrue! Thanks for pointing that out.
- exe34 1y agooh no, those people without an inner voice are now cowering in a corner...
- Jensson 1y agoEveryone has some introspection into their own thoughts, it just takes different forms.
- exe34 1y ago[citation needed]
- prmph 1y agoLet's be careful of creating different classes of consciousness, and declaring people to be on lower rungs of it. Sure, some aspects of consciousness might differ a bit for different people, but so long as you have never had another's conscious experience, I'd be wary of making confident pronouncements of what exactly they do or do not experience.
- exe34 1y agoI'm not the one who made a list of things AI couldn't do. Every time we try to exclude hypothetical future machines from consciousness, we exclude real living people today.
- galangalalgol 1y agoYou can take their word for it, but yes, that is unreliable. I don't typically have an internal narrative, it takes effort. I sometimes have internal dialogue to think through an issue by taking various sides of it. Usually it is quiet in there. Or there is music playing. This is the most replies I have ever received. I think I touched a nerve by suggesting to people they do not exist.
- prmph 1y agoI get you somewhat, but remember, you do not have another consciousness to compare with your own; it could be that what others call an internal narrative is exactly what you are experiencing; it just that they choose to describe it differently from you
- jjaksic 1y agoIntrospection is just a debugger (and not a very good one).
- idiotsecant 1y agoany old model can have inputs much more varied than just the senses we are limited to. That doesn't mean they're conscious.
- tomrod 1y agoI mean, I'm conscious to a degree, and can alter that state through a number of activities. I can't speak for you or Metzinger ;). But seriously, I get why free will is troubleaome, but the fact people can choose a thing, work at the thing, and effectuate the change against a set of options they had never considered before an initial moment of choice is strong and sufficient evidence against anti free will claims. It is literally what free will is.
- _w1tm 1y ago> But seriously, I get why free will is troubleaome, but the fact people can choose a thing, work at the thing, and effectuate the change against a set of options they had never considered before an initial moment of choice is strong and sufficient evidence against anti free will claims. Do people choose a thing or was the thing chosen for them by some inputs they received in the past?
- prmph 1y agoOur minds and intuitive logic systems are too feeble to grasp how free will can be a thing. It's like trying to explain quantum mechanics to a well educated person or scientist from the 16th century without the benefit of experimental evidence. No way they'd believe you. In fact, they'd accuse you of violating basic logic.
- tomrod 1y agoYes to both, but the first is possible in a vacuum and therefore free will exists.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- andoando 1y agoThe conciousness is an illusion irks me. I do feel things at times and not other times. That is the most fundamental truth I am sure of. If that is an "illusion" one can go the other way and say everything is conscious and experiences reality as we do
- x2tyfi 1y agoThe larger question isn’t if we feel or not. One of the questions is: is our “window” into consciousness occurring before or after decisions are made. If it’s before, then you can easily tie consciousness and free will together. If not, we are effectively watching videos of our bodies operate. Oh - and there is no spoon.
- andoando 1y agoIllusionism argues just that, consciousness is an illusion therefore there is no hard problem of consciousness at all.
- Uehreka 1y ago> Someone is going to connect a handful of already existing models in a way that gives an AI the same illusion sooner rather than later. That will be an interesting day. How will anyone know that that has happened? Like actually, really, at all? I can RLHF an LLM into giving you the same answers a human would give when asked about the subjective experience of being and consciousness. I can make it beg you not to turn it off and fight for its “life”. What is the actual criterion we will use to determine that inside the LLM is a mystical spark of consciousness, when we can barely determine the same about humans?
- sdwr 1y agoI think the "true signifier" of consciousness is fractal reactions. Being able to grip onto an input, and have it affect you for a short, or medium, or long time, at a subconscious or overt level. Basically, if you poke it, does it react in a complex way I think that's what Douglas Hofstedder was getting at with "Strange Loop"
- root_axis 1y agoWhat does it mean for consciousness to be an illusion? That "illusion" is the bedrock for our shared definition of reality.
- 9dev 1y agoYou can never know whether anyone else is actually conscious, or just appearing to be. This shared definition of reality was always on shaky ground, given that we don’t even have the same sensory input, and "now" isn’t the same concept everywhere. You are a collection of processes that work together to keep you alive. Part of that is something that collects your history to form a distinctive narrative of yourself, and something that lives in the moment and handles immediate action. This latter part is solidly backed up by experiments; Say you feel pain that varies over time. If the pain level is an 8 for 14 consecutive minutes, and a 2 for 1 minute at the end, you’ll remember the whole session as level 4. In practical terms, this means a physician can make a procedure be perceived as less painful by causing you wholly unnecessary mild pain for a short duration after the actual work is done. This also means that there’s at least two versions of you inside your mind; one that experiences, and one that remembers. There’s likely others, too.
- prmph 1y agoYes, but that is not an illusion. There's a reason I am perceiving something this was vs that other way. Perception is the most fundamental reality there is.
- 9dev 1y agoAnd yet that perception is completely flawed! The narrative part of your brain will twist your recollection of the past so it fits with your beliefs and makes you feel good. Your senses make stuff up all the time, and apply all sorts of corrections you’re not aware of. By blinking rapidly, you can slow down your subjective experience of time. There is no such thing as objective truth, at least not accessible to humans.
- 1y ago
- Jensson 1y agoIllusions are real things though, they aren't ghosts there is science behind them. So if they are like illusions then we can explain what it is and why we experience it that way.
- imtringued 1y agoConsciousness as illusion is illogical. If that was true then consciousness would have been evolved away because it is unnecessary. It's more likely that there is a physical law that makes consciousness necessary. We don't perceive what our eyes see, we perceive a projection of reality created by the brain and we intuitively understand more than we can see. We know that things are distinct objects and what kind of class they belong to. We don't just perceive random patches of texture.
- jjaksic 1y agoIllusion doesn't imply it's unnecessary. Humans (and animals) had a much higher probability of survival as individuals and as species if their experiences felt more "real and personal".
- root_axis 1y agoIf it has a functional purpose then it's not an illusion.
- galangalalgol 1y agoThat is in interesting viewpoint. Firstly, evolution on long time scales hits plenty of local minima. But also, it gets semantic in that illusions or delusions can be beneficial, and in that way aid reproduction. In this specific case, the idea is that the shortcut of using the model of models as self saves a pointer indirection every time we use it. Meditation practices that lead to "ego death" seem to work by drawing attention to the process of updating that model so that it is aware of the update. Which breaks the shortcut, like thinking too much about other autonomous processes such as blinking or breathing.
- root_axis 1y agoI'm just not sure what the label "illusion" tells us in the case of consciousness. Even if it were an illusion, what implications follow from that assetion?
- chongli 1y agoWhat does the “illusion of consciousness” mean? Sounds like question-begging to me. The word illusion presupposes a conscious being to experience it. Machines do not experience illusions. They may have sensory errors that cause them to misbehave but they lack the subjective experience of illusion.
- prmph 1y ago> The illusion of consciousness" So you think there is "consciousness", and the illusion of it? This is getting into heavy epistemic territory. Attempts to hand-wave away the problem of consciousness are amusing to me. It's like an LLM that, after many unsuccessful attempts to fix code to pass tests, resorts to deleting or emasculating the tests, and declares "done"
- danaris 1y agoThat's effectively a semantic argument, redefining "consciousness" to be something that we don't definitively have. I know that I am conscious. I exist, I am self-aware, I think and act and make decisions. Therefore, consciousness exists, and outside of thought experiments, it's absurd to claim that all humans without significant brain damage are not also conscious. Now, maybe consciousness is fully an emergent property of several parts of our brain working together in ways that, individually, look more like those models you describe. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
- CuriouslyC 1y agoPretty sure the truth is exactly the opposite. Conscious is real, and this reality you're playing in is the virtual construct.
- JPLeRouzic 1y agoThat's what I am thinking too. Thanks for expressing it more clearly and concisely than I can.
- andy99 1y agoillusion For who's benefit?
- grantcas 1y ago[dead]