8 ms·

> “Cars must include modern life‑saving tech like automatic braking and lane‑keeping.” I rarely drive my car. When I do, 99% of the time it's within a few kilo

• Nextgrid 1y ago
  A lot of these features are merely software. The insane increase in car prices over the last decade is a combination of profiteering + inflation, not safety features.
• torben-friis 1y ago
  Because you're potentially moving several thousand kilos at huge speed, and the people that can find themselves in front of them should not have to trust your judgement of how safe you'll usually need the machine to be.
  • dgfitz 1y ago
    I’ll be sure to tell that to the poor person on a bicycle in the middle of the road in front of me when I come around a blind curve and can’t jump lanes so as not to hit them. “So sorry I squished you, my lane assist wouldn’t let me move out of the way in time.”
    • zeroonetwothree 1y ago
      Fortunately automatic emergency braking is another tech that hopefully your car also has.
      • dgfitz 1y ago
        I will buy used cars that don’t auto-anything for me until I literally cannot find one anymore. Then I’ll buy a tune to remove the feature.
        • esseph 1y ago
          This sounds like it'd be a good way to lose your license in the future, and maybe have a criminal court case if there was an significant accident that could have been prevented by said features you disabled.
          • DaSHacka 1y ago
            Only criminals need to modify their car. Now accept our integrated telemetry gathering that reports directly to LexisNexis so insurance companies can raise your rates [0]. Surely you understand, think of the children! [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driv...
            • esseph 1y ago
              Nobody had said anything about telemetry, so far. The rest of us are talking about actual safety features.
              • DaSHacka 1y ago
                They're often one and the same in newer vehicles, unfortunately. Criminalizing modifying your own car only stands to benefit the corporations that salivate at the mouth thinking of the data mining opportunities.
    • torben-friis 1y ago
      That's a completely different discussion. OP was asking why not let him lower standards for cheaper price, not discussing the standard's quality.
    • NikolaNovak 1y ago
      Is there a lane assist that won't let you change lanes? I've driven several brands and they just shake wheel or exert like 5% gentle nudge. But maybe there are brands that will actually forcefully prevent lane change without signal (which is automatic / reflexive for most people who'd have good reflexes but I digress). I'm not at all saying that all Automation is good or that cars always know better than me, but I do want to understand if this is a made-up strawman argument or has anybody ever actually failed to change lanes due to lane assist.
      • dgfitz 1y ago
        To be fair I do not know, never driven one. Seems like the slippery slope has already been paved with good intentions though.
        • NikolaNovak 1y ago
          I'm a techie, I loved my 2004 wrx for good two decades, but which slippery slope are we discussing here? Putting a black box in your car that records everything without my consent - I'm with you on slippery slopes and ulterior motives. A gentle gentle nudge that helps me on long distances - I'm honestly not with you :-/
          • whatevaa 1y ago
            Last I heard, not all cars are "gentle". Implementation depended.
            • NikolaNovak 1y ago
              Fair possibility, that's why my question here is - did anybody actually experience a car that won't let you change lanes easily without a turning signal? I've driven Toyota, Ford, subaru and kia off the top of my head and while e.g. Toyota feels rougher than Honda, none of them approach anything that would even remotely stop, prevent, or even slow me down if I really want to change lanes, let alone if I did it forcefully in emergency. Can't speak for other brands and I definitely never drive a Tesla :-)
    • raincole 1y ago
      So after manslaughter you are now committing perjury? This is not how lane assist works. Like, not at all.
      • dgfitz 1y ago
        I don’t think the dead guy will be in the courtroom. Clever try though.
        • saagarjha 1y ago
          Someone who read your car's manual might, though.
    • dijksterhuis 1y ago
      you do realise that most people slow down for blind curves for exactly this reason, right? pre-empt potential dangers and adjust driving accordingly. if you’re concerned that you might have to act due to an unseen/unknown danger — then slow down. it shouldn’t be necessary to swerve out when driving except as a choice of absolute last resort (ie something/someone jumped in front of you inside braking distance and you’ve got no other safe option, in which case you’re probably fucked anyway).
      • raincole 1y ago
        > you do realise that most people slow down for blind curves for exactly this reason, right? The parent commenter sounds exactly like one of those who don't slow down for blind curves.
        • dgfitz 1y ago
          You can take a blind curve at 15 miles an hour and not have time to avoid debris in the road. Use some critical thinking.
          • beAbU 1y ago
            At 15mph most cars should be able to stop on a dime, no?
            • dijksterhuis 1y ago
              extrapolating a little, 15mph is ~<10m Speed | Thinking + braking distance | Stopping distance 20mph | 6m + 6m | 12m (40 feet) 30mph | 9m + 14m | 23m (75 feet) 40mph | 12m + 24m | 36m (118 feet) 50mph | 15m + 38m | 53m (174 feet) 60mph | 18m + 55m | 73m (240 feet) 70mph | 21m + 75m | 96m (315 feet) > https://www.theaa.com/breakdown-cover/advice/stopping-distances https://www.theaa.com/breakdown-cover/advice/stopping-distan... note that the braking distances are not for modern cars with advancements in braking tech etc.
            • dgfitz 1y ago
    • beAbU 1y ago
      You are arguing in bad faith. You are also creating a straw man argument attempting to rubbish a feature that works acceptably well in 99% other use cases even if your scenario is legitimate. If there is a blind corner you should slow down enough that you can safely stop if there are obstacles in the road. You don't know what's in the oncoming lane, so you can't assume that it'll be safe to blindly swerve into it to avoid something in your lane. Secondly, lane keeping does not lock your steering wheel preventing you from changing lanes if you need to. The additional force required to override it is the difference between steering with your pinky and gripping the wheel with your hand.
  • buckle8017 1y ago
    I almost died on a freeway when my Subaru Outback decided there was something in front and engaged full braking. 110 kmh to 40 before it realized it was wrong. pure luck nobody was following too close.
    • Reason077 1y ago
      As long as the vehicle behind you is also equipped with AEB, you should be ok.
      • reassess_blind 1y ago
        Yes, let’s hope that motorcycle has AEB.
        • Reason077 1y ago
          It's coming. Already mandatory for all new motorcycles in some countries.
          • AnthonyMouse 1y ago
            If you try to brake a motorcycle as fast as you would a car, it has a tendency to flip over. And in general different vehicles have different stopping distances, so "just have the whole line of cars all panic brake at once" is going to have them smashing into each other.
            • ninalanyon 1y ago
              Only if they are all driving too close the the car in front. If you keep to the recommended 3 seconds separation you will most often be fine even in bad weather. I drive my Tesla S on Autopilot with the separation set to the maximum which is about 3 seconds and it makes for a comfortable motorway driving experience.
              • 1y ago
  • Aaargh20318 1y ago
    > Because you're potentially moving several thousand kilos at huge speed No, I’m not. My current car weighs less than a thousand kilos (945 to be precise) and the speed limit in basically the entire city is 30km/h. Newer cars are ‘several thousand kilos’ especially because of all the regulations. Just being an EV adds a significant amount of weight due to the battery.
• feoren 1y ago
  Safety regulations are not why cars cost 3x more than 10 years ago. Emission standards have some impact, but the biggest cause is bog standard inflation and corporate greed.
  • loeber 1y ago
    "Corporate greed" -- most car manufacturers have 3-10% gross margins. Not exactly the big profiteers.
    • witrak 1y ago
      >most car manufacturers have 3-10% gross margins. I remember some analysis saying that it is true for classic versions like sedan. But on SUVs it is a couple of times bigger...
    • StopDisinfo910 1y ago
      European manufacturers all decided to focus on higher costs vehicles after Covid-19 because margins are slightly higher and they make more on the financing. They have intentionally deserted the entry market. Now, sales numbers are starting to plummet so I fully expect to see them blame everything from regulators to China unfair exports rather than admit it’s just a normal consequence of their own strategy. Add to that that most of them have intentionally not taken the shift towards electric and away from diesel that the regulation forced on them, you get a pretty bleak picture. But, on that point, it seems that Germany will as usual cave in and drag the whole EU down with them so they might have been right.
  • whatevaa 1y ago
    Emission equipment has huge impact on cheaper vechiles, as it is expensive and costs similary whether it is is cheap or expensive model. DPF in particular.
• georgeecollins 1y ago
  Most accidents happen close to home.
  • raincole 1y ago
    Whose home? From the source I found, it's the patient's home, not the driver's. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4375775/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4375775/
• bko 1y ago
  I agree with everything you wrote. But the real harm with most of these regulations are the unintended consequences, and second order effects. Say you don't really think <10k cars belong on the road. Sure. But that could just lead to more dangerous forms of transportation like e-bikes or scooters. Or people are restricted to where they can work and live. An example in the US is Obama era fuel efficiency standards for sedans had lower standards for SUVs. Fast-forward 20 years, nearly every car is an SUV. But it takes a few steps to figure out what the effects actually are.
  • littlecosmic 1y ago
    But how sure are you that it was the fuel efficiency standards that led to more SUVs? Feels like bad reasoning, unless you have more evidence.
  • xethos 1y ago
    > that could just lead to more dangerous forms of transportation like e-bikes or scooters. Yeah, removing mass and decreasing velocity, while increasing sightlines and the controller's stake in avoiding accidents, is much more dangerous. /s
  • watwut 1y ago
    E-bikes are literally good for your health. Especially for aging people and people that would not ride normal bike that distance. They are also massively more safe for third parties you encounter. The move from cars to e-bikes would be generally unintended benefit
  • immibis 1y ago
    I've never heard of an e-bike or a scooter killing someone.
    • ninalanyon 1y ago
      It has happened several time in the last few years in Norway and UK. Most were the riders themselves but at least once in Norway it was a pedestrian. It's rare but not unknown.
• NikolaNovak 1y ago
  Most price increase over last 10-15 years is not safety equipment. Regular inflation was massively compounded by the covid chip shortages / missplanning / greed / whatever ratio of factors one subscribes to. Note, while I do not expect we will convince each other via interwebs, every safety advance from winter tires to abs to safety belts to airbags to glass that doesn't shatter etc has had a "but I don't need it because I don't drive much | I am awesome driver | it could not happen to me | etc". I don't think it's binary, I think regulation over reach is a definite thing, I just don't think massive increase in car prices over last 5 years is because companies are forcing safety equipment on awesome drivers who don't need it. Case in point, I got the last kia rio model with all the fancy equipment and detection and even wireless carplay for 18k before they dropped the model. They don't sell a car like that anymore. Next cheapest car kia sells me right now is 26k or more - with absolutely no more safety features to justify / blame the massive price jump :-(
• pluto_modadic 1y ago
  "I don't need a curb cut or a seatbelt, so I won't benefit from society having them" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_cut_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_cut_effect )
  • ninalanyon 1y ago
    Dropped kerb in British English for those like me who had no idea what a curb cut was.
  • spixy 1y ago
    Its more like "Curb cuts are mandatory now so they are everywhere". (which is not good because now cars can drive on sidewalk)
• kjellsbells 1y ago
  For your use case, the Citroen Ami is comfortably sub 10k. But perhaps you are making a larger point about "things I consider unnecessary adding $$ to the base cost of every vehicle." I would say, to that, that - your governments and voters consider them important for societal reasons, e.g. airbags so you can walk away from a crash, or cameras to help crushing a child when reversing. Presumably you are ok with this..or not? - the car manufacturers in the EU are politically powerful and absolutely fearful that if the EU allowed the full range of global vehicles into the European market, they would be crushed overnight. Why buy a VW when you can get any number of Chinese minis, or Indian econoboxes, or even a cheap kei car. I guarantee that China keeps Daimler-Benz and VW execs up at night and that they have the full support of their workers when they spend money to lobby against low cost foreign imports...
  • Aaargh20318 1y ago
    > For your use case, the Citroen Ami is comfortably sub 10k. That car is not suitable for my use-case. Any situation where I would use that car is one where I would use my e-bike instead. I basically use my car for those occasions where I just need to transport a bit more than I can take on my bike. It doesn’t have to be huge, but that Ami is just not enough.
    • skylurk 1y ago
      Tangential, but does your use case rule out taxi service or a car-share plan? Way more expensive per use, but you might still come out ahead.
    • prmoustache 1y ago
      I just use a trailer[1], I find it bonkers that one would use a car only for urban transportation. If I wasn't going regularly in remote area with my partners and my kids, I wouldn't even own a car. [1] I like cargo bikes but storage can be a challenge compared to a trailer you can fold and remove the wheels when not in use.
  • wqaatwt 1y ago
    > the Citroen Ami is comfortably sub 10k. It’s a quadricycle and not a real car, though. Also I’d bet that VW/etc. executives are more fearful of Chinese equivalent’s of their mid/high-end models which cost the same as Europran manufacturer’s budget options. Not tiny/ultra-budget/featureless vehicles which wouldn’t be that popular in Europe. The issues with the Ami or anything similar or most cheap barebones models is that you can get a much nicer used car for the same price. Modern cars are also much more reliable and last longer than they used to several decades back reducing the demand in the budget segment.
• Reason077 1y ago
  > "Nowadays, you're looking at €30k+ for a new, small car precisely because of the safety regulations" Not really. There are many reasons why new cars are more expensive than they used to be. But safety features like AEB and lane assist are a relatively small part of it. Adding AEB specifically is estimated to cost $100-$300 per vehicle in the US, and it wouldn't be much different in Europe. And AEB is proven to work: reducing the rate of accidents by 40% or more. A small price to pay if it prevents the car getting damaged even once in it's life, let alone preventing an injury or death. Also, it will depend on your location specifically, but there are plenty of new, entry-level vehicle models sold in Europe for well under €20k, including taxes and on-road costs.
  • AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    > Adding AEB specifically is estimated to cost $100-$300 per vehicle in the US, and it wouldn't be much different in Europe. Isn't this exactly the issue? Any given thing is "only" $300 but you add one of these requirements a year for several decades straight and now you've added thousands of dollars to the price of a car. > And AEB is proven to work: reducing the rate of accidents by 40% or more. It reduces the rate of accidents that occur under certain circumstances. Pretty good chance that those circumstances are "in a city in traffic". But then the feature is required on all cars, even when the owner knows they'll rarely if ever be driving it under the conditions where it's useful. Or worse, when they know they'll be commonly driving under circumstances where it's more likely to encounter a false positive and cause an accident.
    • wqaatwt 1y ago
      But its also there to protect pedestrians and others from the owner as much as himself. From the government/regulatory perspective.
      • AnthonyMouse 1y ago
        That only changes the math if collisions are "free" to the vehicle purchaser while causing damage to someone else. Otherwise their interests are aligned, i.e. neither of them wants that to happen and so will want the safety feature unless it has low effectiveness in their circumstances. Obviously some people will make a poor choice, but that's just as true as legislators, and all costs are a trade off against what else you could have gotten for the money. In other words, all safety features that cost money have an opportunity cost, which is also measured in lost lives, so the ones that aren't effective or have diminished effectiveness under particular circumstances shouldn't be mandatory in all cases.
• thi2 1y ago
  What kind of strawman are you trying here?
• arp242 1y ago
  Cheapest Fiat Panda seems to go for €14,700[1], so colour me sceptical on that "€30k+ for a new small car". In a quick check, it seems it was about €10k in 2011.[2] The price increase is more than inflation, but you can't just assume that it's primarily due to safety regulations and emission standards. [1] https://www.fiat.it/omni/configuratore/#/customize?color=CL-509&interior=IN-099&wheels=8-BG1&commercialModelCode=3199&mvss=003191AH9000&sidebarStep=configuration_tab&vehicleType=VP&wcwTyres=false&userType=B2C https://www.fiat.it/omni/configuratore/#/customize?color=CL-... [2] https://supercarblondie.com/how-much-the-fiat-panda-has-increased-in-price-over-21-years/ https://supercarblondie.com/how-much-the-fiat-panda-has-incr...
  • Aaargh20318 1y ago
    > Cheapest Fiat Panda seems to go for €14,700 Cheapest Fiat Panda goes for €19,990 in my country. Taxes on new cars are enormous here. That seems to be the only ICE model they still sell, and for how long will they stil sell that? The even smaller Fiat 500e is €28,990.
    • skylurk 1y ago
      > Taxes on new cars are enormous here Seems like taxes could be the larger factor then?
    • beAbU 1y ago
      Stop shifting the goalposts. The argument was no cars are available sub 30k, and that was proven wrong. Now you are arguing that <€30k cars might not he available in the near future, which no one is disputing. Then you use the existence of a <€30k ev to prove your point?
    • arp242 1y ago
      €20k is still a third off from your earlier €30k+. And when I checked yesterday evening I saw several cars in similar price ranges. And now you're saying that "enormous taxes" are partly responsible for price increases, instead of just regulations and emission standards, which demonstrates my point exactly: there are many reasons cars are more expensive.
• koliber 1y ago
  You are an exception if you never drive more than a few kilometers. Exceptional people need to learn that the world caters to average situations. It’s not possible to please everyone.
• ponector 1y ago
  >> Ten years ago you could buy a brand new small car for well under €10k. Sure, it didn't have all the bells and whistles but I have no need for those anyway. Nowadays, you're looking at €30k+ for a new, small car If you are looking for car without bells and whistles you can buy a new car for €15k. €30k+ is a price tag for much more than basic car.
  • user____name 1y ago
    Indeed, I watched a €15k car TV commercial literally 2 minutes ago.
• PeterStuer 1y ago
  Lane assist is more often annoying and dangerous than helpfull. It assumes lane markings are good/perfect, which over here is a very false premise.
  • ninalanyon 1y ago
    If my ancient Model S can't see the road markings it won't engage lane keeping and makes a noise to alert you to that fact. Similarly when the lane markings disappear, it flashes a red warning in the instrument cluster and sounds an alarm.
    • PeterStuer 1y ago
      Will depend on the country I guess. Over here road markings around (former) roadworks often are literally swept across the lanes (when they use some temporary yellow adhesive lane marking stuff), or stay painted on long after the works have finished. In both cases, while mostly obvious to the human driver, following the lane markings would send you straight into the opposite lane.
• user____name 1y ago
  You can say the same things a about seatbelts and airbags. And people did.
• powerapple 1y ago
  I recently rode a scooter for couple of times, and I find it is the best thing to move around in neighbourhood. It is convinent, parking is easy, cheap to run. Everyone should have one electronic scooter.
• sunshine-o 1y ago
  > “Cars must include modern life‑saving tech like automatic braking and lane‑keeping.” My observation and intuition is most accidents are caused by people using their phone, driving under the influence, wrong medicine, being crazy or just too tired or too old. Unless we are talking about full self driving those assistances only delay an accident at best. I enjoy those features, they are convenient, but I do not consider them safety features.