4 ms·

It is in no way close to theft because theft involves depriving the victim of some good or asset.

gameman144 1y ago
Does it? There are loads of types of theft that don't remove the good or asset from the owner: Identity theft, IP theft, theft of private digital assets (e.g. photos, writings, music)
- ipaddr 1y ago
  Those are labels. Identity theft is more identity fraud. Theft of digital assets is copyright infringement.
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    Identity theft is someone else stealing money from the bank, and the bank telling you that's your problem now.
  - gameman144 1y ago
    This is interesting, I definitely use "theft" colloquially for all these things. For the digital assets, I mentally bucket copyright infringement and theft differently. For instance, if I copy someone's photography and sell it, that's copyright infringement (not theft). However, if I hacked into someones Google photos and sold the contents, I'd consider that theft (since there was no intent for the material to be available) Granted, it's fair to disagree here, so I'm not adamantly against the definition that requires removing access or anything.
- ghurtado 1y ago
  "lots of theft is not theft. Like for instance, all these things that are not theft" ... Lots of murder doesn't have a victim... .... Lots of arson doesn't involve a fire... ... Lots of trespass involves not taking a single step from your work desk .. ... War is peace, peace is war...
  - gameman144 1y ago
    I think the above things are commonly considered theft. Totally fair to contend that the definition is wrong (and IMO that's a reasonable-minded contention), but I don't it's particularly double-think to bucket these digital "thefts" in the same category as physical thefts, either.
- exe34 1y ago
  these are deliberate attempts to shift the overton window.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  Identity theft in particular is a poor term because it shifts the blame from the verifier (the one who actually got things wrong) to the victim.
  - ndriscoll 1y ago
    Actually it attempts to shift liability from the victim (the bank, who was defrauded) to an unrelated party who may or may not be affiliated with the bank at all.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
anileated 1y ago
There is nothing in the word “theft” that implies depriving someone of physical property. Theft of private data deprives the owner of privacy. Theft of corporate secrets deprives the company of competitive advantage (and if not prosecuted, economy at large of incentives to innovate). IP theft deprives IP holder of ownership claim (and if not prosecuted, arts at large of incentives to create). Identity theft deprives the identity holder of whatever access to their identity provided to them. This can be continued infinitely. These scenarios are not the same, and using “theft” for all of them is not precise. However, it is 2025 and in developed countries this sort of crime happens more often than basic theft of physical property, and the detriment from it is often much, much more severe than from basic theft of physical property. (I am sure I don’t need to explain how depriving IP owner of ownership claim can cost the original creator much more than depriving them of some single physical asset, both literally financially and in terms of psychological damage.) It’s therefore important to have a short, mainstream, easy to understand and non-legalese term for these scenarios. Without any suitable mainstream term the word “theft” is a good enough intuitive approximation—if anything, it’s a bit too mild of a term.
- hdgvhicv 1y ago
  Theft (from Old English þeofð, cognate to thief) is the act of taking another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it The word has become overloaded in recent decades to mean other things as well, but for over a thousand years theft has mean taking something from someone permanently
  - anileated 1y ago
    > Theft (from Old English þeofð, cognate to thief) is the act of taking another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it > for over a thousand years theft has mean taking something from someone permanently Nothing in your comment is in contradiction to mine, or suggests that the word has been “overloaded”. That’s what theft is. Intellectual property is property, trade secrets are property.

Does it? There are loads of types of theft that don't remove the good or asset from the owner: Identity theft, IP theft, theft of private digital assets (e.g. photos, writings, music)

ipaddr 1y ago
Those are labels. Identity theft is more identity fraud. Theft of digital assets is copyright infringement.
- margalabargala 1y ago
  Identity theft is someone else stealing money from the bank, and the bank telling you that's your problem now.
- gameman144 1y ago
  This is interesting, I definitely use "theft" colloquially for all these things. For the digital assets, I mentally bucket copyright infringement and theft differently. For instance, if I copy someone's photography and sell it, that's copyright infringement (not theft). However, if I hacked into someones Google photos and sold the contents, I'd consider that theft (since there was no intent for the material to be available) Granted, it's fair to disagree here, so I'm not adamantly against the definition that requires removing access or anything.
ghurtado 1y ago
"lots of theft is not theft. Like for instance, all these things that are not theft" ... Lots of murder doesn't have a victim... .... Lots of arson doesn't involve a fire... ... Lots of trespass involves not taking a single step from your work desk .. ... War is peace, peace is war...
- gameman144 1y ago
  I think the above things are commonly considered theft. Totally fair to contend that the definition is wrong (and IMO that's a reasonable-minded contention), but I don't it's particularly double-think to bucket these digital "thefts" in the same category as physical thefts, either.
exe34 1y ago
these are deliberate attempts to shift the overton window.
IshKebab 1y ago
Identity theft in particular is a poor term because it shifts the blame from the verifier (the one who actually got things wrong) to the victim.
- ndriscoll 1y ago
  Actually it attempts to shift liability from the victim (the bank, who was defrauded) to an unrelated party who may or may not be affiliated with the bank at all.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

anileated 1y ago

There is nothing in the word “theft” that implies depriving someone of physical property. Theft of private data deprives the owner of privacy. Theft of corporate secrets deprives the company of competitive advantage (and if not prosecuted, economy at large of incentives to innovate). IP theft deprives IP holder of ownership claim (and if not prosecuted, arts at large of incentives to create). Identity theft deprives the identity holder of whatever access to their identity provided to them. This can be continued infinitely. These scenarios are not the same, and using “theft” for all of them is not precise. However, it is 2025 and in developed countries this sort of crime happens more often than basic theft of physical property, and the detriment from it is often much, much more severe than from basic theft of physical property. (I am sure I don’t need to explain how depriving IP owner of ownership claim can cost the original creator much more than depriving them of some single physical asset, both literally financially and in terms of psychological damage.) It’s therefore important to have a short, mainstream, easy to understand and non-legalese term for these scenarios. Without any suitable mainstream term the word “theft” is a good enough intuitive approximation—if anything, it’s a bit too mild of a term.

hdgvhicv 1y ago
Theft (from Old English þeofð, cognate to thief) is the act of taking another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it The word has become overloaded in recent decades to mean other things as well, but for over a thousand years theft has mean taking something from someone permanently
- anileated 1y ago
  > Theft (from Old English þeofð, cognate to thief) is the act of taking another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it > for over a thousand years theft has mean taking something from someone permanently Nothing in your comment is in contradiction to mine, or suggests that the word has been “overloaded”. That’s what theft is. Intellectual property is property, trade secrets are property.