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Assuming your PM is for product manager not project manager. I would think the engineers usually get their kick out of making things fast or easy to maintain.

by hvb2 1y ago

Assuming your PM is for product manager not project manager. I would think the engineers usually get their kick out of making things fast or easy to maintain. If you have a product manager and the customers hate the product, how is that the engineers fault? I've built a couple useless features that I wouldn't want to use and couldn't explain how to use. But if you have a product person, they get to design is BECAUSE they're in the line of fire. That's a comfortable position to be in as an engineer, except that you sometimes have to build things more than once.

zamadatix 1y ago
There are two separate problems, and they aren't mutually exclusive, but this post seems to be specifically about the latter case (if one believes the story, of course): - The PM(s) are bad at listening to customers or turning customer feedback into a focused set of requirements. - The engineer(s) are bad at following the requirements or going back to the PM(s) when the requirements aren't clear. In the first the PM(s) can just lack understanding of what the product does or interest in why customers use it, can be overconfident in their ability to "see what the customer actually wants", or just actually want to build something else but are assigned to this product. In the second, the engineer(s) can just lack understanding of what the product does or interest in why customers use it, can be overconfident in their ability to "see what the customer actually wants", or just actually want to build something else but are assigned to this product. In either case, it results in the product not fitting the customer needs. I think there are better ways to solve either gap than just having the engineers join sales calls to hope it works out, but I suppose any approach is better than letting the problem sit.
- pyman 1y ago
  Lots of product managers have never studied product development. You'll find philosophers, designers, physicists, even musicians in the role. Many have great people skills, but little understanding of customer service, building products, or scaling a business. And funnily enough, those are all real careers and degrees. The result, which you often see in companies with 300+ employees, is that engineers have far more experience building products than their PMs, what engineers usually lack is knowledge of the customer and their pain points, and a roadmap that leads to successful outcomes. In other words: a real product manager. It's not enough for PMs to throw around cliches like "I represent the customer" or "the product has to be built around customer needs" if they don't understand how to actually build and ship software. Last year I dug into this and found it's not unusual. Many software companies hire smart people as CPO, Product Director, or Head of Product because they have leadership skills, people skills, and some knowledge of the industry. But most have little to no background in business, marketing, economics, or product development. Some companies go even further and promote an engineer with project management experience to Head of Product. And, of course, people in those roles tend to hire others who look like them, with similar experience. One day their CEO realiseS their product isn't selling, customers aren't happy, or engineers are left to figure out what to build. To put it in perspective, imagine a company making a lawyer their Engineering Manager and asking them to build an engineering team. What are the chances they'd do better than a computer scientist or an actual engineer? Pretty slim. Sure, there are exceptions, but what usually happens is their engineers aren't motivated and complain about the lack of coaching, vision, purpose, and the poor quality of their tools, processes, code, and work environment. Bottom line: companies need to audit product leadership roles as a priority and figure out who's really in charge of the product. Run an internal survey to check whether your CPO, Director, Head of Product, and Product Managers have studied business or have actual expertise in it. If not, you're in trouble.
  - AznHisoka 1y ago
    >> Many have great people skills, but little understanding of customer service, building products, or scaling a business. And funnily enough, those are all real careers and degrees. Where would people skills rank then in your hierarchy for product managers?
    - pyman 1y ago
      People skills matter for product managers, but they come after customer and product experience, business and product strategy, and execution and delivery. Otherwise you just end up with a nice PM who doesn't know how to move the product forward.
  - ivan_gammel 1y ago
    I support every single word of this comment. Good product managers are unicorn masters of discovery and delivery who are so rare that they climb up quickly in corporate hierarchy to strategic positions leaving holes in product operations. I have seen products running A/B tests without understanding how they work, designing UI sketches without any knowledge of UX, pushing features to roadmap based on a feedback of a single user etc. Maybe it makes more sense to abandon this role instead of fixing it and split the required skills between UX designers, business analysts, marketers, engineering and project managers etc.
    - pyman 1y ago
      I think the role of Product Manager should be renamed Customer Manager to avoid confusion and conflicts of interest. Some companies like Airbnb tried switching to Program Manager, but that only adds to the confusion. Right now, the Product Manager is seen as the CEO's delegate, making sure the product follows business strategy, while the Engineering Manager is the CTO's delegate, making sure the product follows technical strategy. One represents business the other represents technology. But IMO since both are building the product together, the title Product Manager creates competition instead of collaboration. The software needs the customer just as much as the customer needs the software. That's why I think the roles of Engineering Manager and Customer Manager make more sense, working together to build the best product possible. The product isn't managed by one side, it's managed by both. However, the real problem isn't the role title, it's the qualifications of the person in the role. Companies don't hire lawyers as Engineering Managers, so why do they hire musicians as Product Managers?
hinkley 1y ago
> I would think the engineers usually get their kick out of making things fast or easy to maintain Is your company hiring? Because I've spent 30 years being this engineer and nearly everyone looks at me like I've got horns growing out of my head. That's not where most engineers find their job satisfaction, more's the pity. And they think they know better than users. There's a reason UX has been around for at least four decades longer than DX. Developers think both are made up.

by hvb2 1y ago

zamadatix 1y ago

There are two separate problems, and they aren't mutually exclusive, but this post seems to be specifically about the latter case (if one believes the story, of course): - The PM(s) are bad at listening to customers or turning customer feedback into a focused set of requirements. - The engineer(s) are bad at following the requirements or going back to the PM(s) when the requirements aren't clear. In the first the PM(s) can just lack understanding of what the product does or interest in why customers use it, can be overconfident in their ability to "see what the customer actually wants", or just actually want to build something else but are assigned to this product. In the second, the engineer(s) can just lack understanding of what the product does or interest in why customers use it, can be overconfident in their ability to "see what the customer actually wants", or just actually want to build something else but are assigned to this product. In either case, it results in the product not fitting the customer needs. I think there are better ways to solve either gap than just having the engineers join sales calls to hope it works out, but I suppose any approach is better than letting the problem sit.

pyman 1y ago
Lots of product managers have never studied product development. You'll find philosophers, designers, physicists, even musicians in the role. Many have great people skills, but little understanding of customer service, building products, or scaling a business. And funnily enough, those are all real careers and degrees. The result, which you often see in companies with 300+ employees, is that engineers have far more experience building products than their PMs, what engineers usually lack is knowledge of the customer and their pain points, and a roadmap that leads to successful outcomes. In other words: a real product manager. It's not enough for PMs to throw around cliches like "I represent the customer" or "the product has to be built around customer needs" if they don't understand how to actually build and ship software. Last year I dug into this and found it's not unusual. Many software companies hire smart people as CPO, Product Director, or Head of Product because they have leadership skills, people skills, and some knowledge of the industry. But most have little to no background in business, marketing, economics, or product development. Some companies go even further and promote an engineer with project management experience to Head of Product. And, of course, people in those roles tend to hire others who look like them, with similar experience. One day their CEO realiseS their product isn't selling, customers aren't happy, or engineers are left to figure out what to build. To put it in perspective, imagine a company making a lawyer their Engineering Manager and asking them to build an engineering team. What are the chances they'd do better than a computer scientist or an actual engineer? Pretty slim. Sure, there are exceptions, but what usually happens is their engineers aren't motivated and complain about the lack of coaching, vision, purpose, and the poor quality of their tools, processes, code, and work environment. Bottom line: companies need to audit product leadership roles as a priority and figure out who's really in charge of the product. Run an internal survey to check whether your CPO, Director, Head of Product, and Product Managers have studied business or have actual expertise in it. If not, you're in trouble.
- AznHisoka 1y ago
  >> Many have great people skills, but little understanding of customer service, building products, or scaling a business. And funnily enough, those are all real careers and degrees. Where would people skills rank then in your hierarchy for product managers?
  - pyman 1y ago
    People skills matter for product managers, but they come after customer and product experience, business and product strategy, and execution and delivery. Otherwise you just end up with a nice PM who doesn't know how to move the product forward.
- ivan_gammel 1y ago
  I support every single word of this comment. Good product managers are unicorn masters of discovery and delivery who are so rare that they climb up quickly in corporate hierarchy to strategic positions leaving holes in product operations. I have seen products running A/B tests without understanding how they work, designing UI sketches without any knowledge of UX, pushing features to roadmap based on a feedback of a single user etc. Maybe it makes more sense to abandon this role instead of fixing it and split the required skills between UX designers, business analysts, marketers, engineering and project managers etc.
  - pyman 1y ago
    I think the role of Product Manager should be renamed Customer Manager to avoid confusion and conflicts of interest. Some companies like Airbnb tried switching to Program Manager, but that only adds to the confusion. Right now, the Product Manager is seen as the CEO's delegate, making sure the product follows business strategy, while the Engineering Manager is the CTO's delegate, making sure the product follows technical strategy. One represents business the other represents technology. But IMO since both are building the product together, the title Product Manager creates competition instead of collaboration. The software needs the customer just as much as the customer needs the software. That's why I think the roles of Engineering Manager and Customer Manager make more sense, working together to build the best product possible. The product isn't managed by one side, it's managed by both. However, the real problem isn't the role title, it's the qualifications of the person in the role. Companies don't hire lawyers as Engineering Managers, so why do they hire musicians as Product Managers?

hinkley 1y ago

> I would think the engineers usually get their kick out of making things fast or easy to maintain Is your company hiring? Because I've spent 30 years being this engineer and nearly everyone looks at me like I've got horns growing out of my head. That's not where most engineers find their job satisfaction, more's the pity. And they think they know better than users. There's a reason UX has been around for at least four decades longer than DX. Developers think both are made up.