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For all i care, he represents all the US citizen. He is your president.

tene80i 1y ago
You ought to care more then, wouldn’t you say? An American has just pleaded with you not to have this attitude and you’ve thrown it back in their face. Hardly a mature attitude or an open mind.
- lazide 1y ago
  The US is just experiencing what every Russian, Iraqi, Afghani, etc. has been dealing with for a long time. It’s FAFO writ large, and the US has been ‘exceptional’ for so long they think they can avoid the FO part.
  - tene80i 1y ago
    But that’s exactly the point - nobody thinks of the citizens of those countries as being unified behind or synonymous with whoever is in charge.
    - lazide 1y ago
      Clearly you’ve never met people? And never seen news discussions, sanctions, seen immigration policies, etc? It may not been as bad and direct as discrimination against the Japanese in WW2, but a ton of people absolutely do discriminate that way. And let’s not talk about Muslims (or anyone with a turban, like Sikhs) post 9/11.
      - tene80i 1y ago
        OK yes I meant no reasonable people. I’m not sure what your point is. That Americans deserve to “find out” terrible things because of their government, but other countries don’t? I was just trying to agree with you that the situations are the same.
        lazide 1y ago
        Deserve has nothing to do with it. But it’s the inevitable consequence of what is going on, and it’s going to get worse. American’s have had a positive PR program for so long, they’re just completely ignorant of what it’s like to no longer have that. The US has switched from exporting the American Dream to exporting the American Nightmare, and that will have long term consequences. People are only now starting to wake up to that fact/feel them, but even if we stopped right this second it will take decades for this to play out. And we’re not stopping, but flooring it.
        brokenmachine 1y ago
        >The US has switched from exporting the American Dream to exporting the American Nightmare, and that will have long term consequences. This, 100%. I'm Australian. I grew up playing basketball and watching American TV and movies, even had superbowl parties with friends on multiple occasions, which is pretty rare here in Australia. Been to the US on holidays. Always got along well with Americans who came here. Take this free opinion from someone outside the exceptionalist bubble: America is on the decline... and it's going to get worse. People won't easily forget this grotesque spectacle.
- mrheosuper 1y ago
  I don't like how people separate themself from "society" when it's convenient for them. You are part of it, whether you like it or not. And last time i check, Trump won most of the swing state, so a large part of US believe in Trump.
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    It's also the second time he won.
  - tene80i 1y ago
    The comment above says “Friendly reminder to please not confuse the Trump administration with all U.S. citizens.” Nobody is saying he doesn’t officially represent the USA. It’s about not assuming ALL Americans agree with what the administration is doing. A reasonable ask, no?
    - petralithic 1y ago
      You can say that about any country though, of course the leader doesn't represent all of the population, just a majority, if they're a democracy, which is rare these day.
      - onlypassingthru 1y ago
        minor nit: The US doesn't require a majority to win the presidency, only a plurality, which was ~32% in the most recent election.† † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States...
    - mrheosuper 1y ago
      The Americans expect the world to constantly make distinctions for them while American foreign policy affects everyone regardless of who individual Americans voted for.
    - orwin 1y ago
      Honestly, if you're not protesting, you're enabling. That's why I dont think all Israelis agree with their government, or all gazaoui agree with Hamas. Protests, regular ones, are happening, on both side. I don't see a lot of those in the US to be fair.
- Ylpertnodi 1y ago
  > Hardly a mature attitude or an open mind. Not gp, but: sorry, Americans, for whatever voter turnouts, gerrymandering, secret deals, etc, etc. He's your president. Twice.
  - Ekaros 1y ago
    In the end as outside I see that you have allowed system to end in place where very divisive candidate won. Maybe if decades ago you had worked towards direction where there was more than two options it could be different... And if the other side would have fielded something that got the other side as passionate as Trump does with his base. Whatever you say at least Trump has truly passionate base. Or will next Democrat nominee be Harris?
CoastalCoder 1y ago
I understand the sentiment, and I can't control how fine of a distinction you're making. In fact, you could legitimately blame people like me for not going further to stop the madness. In my particular case, that could cost me my job, which means losing health insurance for my family and myself. That's a choice I'm making, for sure. To that extent I'm culpable for this situation.
- LadyCailin 1y ago
  I’ve aleast applied some logic for all countries with shitty leaders. Russia, or Israel, or Gaza (Hamas) for instance. Who is responsible for the shittyness done by the governments of these countries? The governments, obviously. But when harm starts going to other nations, who is most responsible for stopping that? Surely the answer must be the citizens of that country? We can’t expect, say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, to be the morally responsible people and expect them to go in and stage a coup. If they do, maybe that’s fine, but they can’t be held culpable if they do nothing. The citizens however, must be, as there otherwise is no one else to stop the evil. Now, I include the US in this list too. So, while it’s true that US citizens are not directly responsible for Trump, there is still a dereliction of ethical duty happening, in my opinion, assuming we agree that Trump is harming other people unnecessarily (which, naturally, many Trump supporters would disagree with.) Of course, even if I’m right, what does that mean in practice? That random Americans on vacation in Italy can be snatched up and sent to The Hague? No, obviously not. I think the most practical effect is that this should give all Americans pause to think, and to at minimum ensure that they are not contributing to the problem in any way, and better yet, fighting the problem in some way. Of course, this doesn’t even begin to address the fact that only 1/3 or so of Americans voted for Harris, which was the only choice that actually could have worked to stop Trump. 1/3 voted for him directly, and of course they are responsible, but another 1/3 couldn’t be bothered to vote, so it is actually a supermajority of the American people that are shitty, either because they couldn’t care less about other people, or they actively contributed to the problem.
  - petralithic 1y ago
    Not everywhere is a democracy though. I'd hesitate to call even the US a democracy and therefore the government is independent of the will of the people.
dotandgtfo 1y ago
What a horrible take. I feel compelled to say that in my experience people in northern Europe can empathize with and separate the population from a dysfunctional two-party political system captured by capital.
- JPKab 1y ago
  Most of the world engages routinely in tribal thinking without any form of self-reflection. Northern Europe is a distinct exception due to post-enlightenment and post WW2 cultural norms. The commenters in this thread engaging in transactional tribalism are angry at Trump supporters in the US (and therefore, all Americans because of their tribal "us vs them" lens) for engaging in the same transactional tribalism that they live in. From a game theory perspective, they want the US and northern Europeans to continue to be the good person in the Prisoner's Dilemma game while they reap the rewards. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the comments here actually support the beliefs of Trump's base, which is "the world hates us, only pretends to be nice to us when we help make them rich, and power is the only currency that matters." There are people in this thread complaining about tariffs on imports in the US that are a fraction of what their own nations charge on imports. They don't seem to grasp that "fairness" is an emotional construct that matters for human voting.
  - watwut 1y ago
    Both sides are the same. Trump and his supporters are the same as people who are their targets .... because it is the same tribalism. > As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the comments here actually support the beliefs of Trump's base, which is "the world hates us, only pretends to be nice to us when we help make them rich, and power is the only currency that matters." When you are t like Trump does, yes you will loose the affection and respect. And besides, Trump and his fans both see those who are friendly to them as suckers to take advantage of. Your wish to be a bully and simultaneously treated like a friend is extremely unrealistic. And not just that, it is a loosing proposition.
UltraSane 1y ago
For this lifelong US citizen Trump's death will be one of the happiest days of my life.
- cmxch 1y ago
  Which will be dashed by someone that fills the void, and does so without meaningful opportunity to harass him with litigation. His motto may end up being “Oderint Dum Metuant”.
  - UltraSane 1y ago
    I honestly feel that Trump's cult of personality is somewhat unique and largely a result of decades of mystique building like his books "Art of the Deal" and The Apprentice. I don't think he would ever have been elected in 2016 if not for The Apprentice. It will be hard for other people to replicate. JD Vance definitely can't do it.

You ought to care more then, wouldn’t you say? An American has just pleaded with you not to have this attitude and you’ve thrown it back in their face. Hardly a mature attitude or an open mind.

lazide 1y ago
The US is just experiencing what every Russian, Iraqi, Afghani, etc. has been dealing with for a long time. It’s FAFO writ large, and the US has been ‘exceptional’ for so long they think they can avoid the FO part.
- tene80i 1y ago
  But that’s exactly the point - nobody thinks of the citizens of those countries as being unified behind or synonymous with whoever is in charge.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Clearly you’ve never met people? And never seen news discussions, sanctions, seen immigration policies, etc? It may not been as bad and direct as discrimination against the Japanese in WW2, but a ton of people absolutely do discriminate that way. And let’s not talk about Muslims (or anyone with a turban, like Sikhs) post 9/11.
    - tene80i 1y ago
      OK yes I meant no reasonable people. I’m not sure what your point is. That Americans deserve to “find out” terrible things because of their government, but other countries don’t? I was just trying to agree with you that the situations are the same.
      - lazide 1y ago
        Deserve has nothing to do with it. But it’s the inevitable consequence of what is going on, and it’s going to get worse. American’s have had a positive PR program for so long, they’re just completely ignorant of what it’s like to no longer have that. The US has switched from exporting the American Dream to exporting the American Nightmare, and that will have long term consequences. People are only now starting to wake up to that fact/feel them, but even if we stopped right this second it will take decades for this to play out. And we’re not stopping, but flooring it.
        brokenmachine 1y ago
        >The US has switched from exporting the American Dream to exporting the American Nightmare, and that will have long term consequences. This, 100%. I'm Australian. I grew up playing basketball and watching American TV and movies, even had superbowl parties with friends on multiple occasions, which is pretty rare here in Australia. Been to the US on holidays. Always got along well with Americans who came here. Take this free opinion from someone outside the exceptionalist bubble: America is on the decline... and it's going to get worse. People won't easily forget this grotesque spectacle.
mrheosuper 1y ago
I don't like how people separate themself from "society" when it's convenient for them. You are part of it, whether you like it or not. And last time i check, Trump won most of the swing state, so a large part of US believe in Trump.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  It's also the second time he won.
- tene80i 1y ago
  The comment above says “Friendly reminder to please not confuse the Trump administration with all U.S. citizens.” Nobody is saying he doesn’t officially represent the USA. It’s about not assuming ALL Americans agree with what the administration is doing. A reasonable ask, no?
  - petralithic 1y ago
    You can say that about any country though, of course the leader doesn't represent all of the population, just a majority, if they're a democracy, which is rare these day.
    - onlypassingthru 1y ago
      minor nit: The US doesn't require a majority to win the presidency, only a plurality, which was ~32% in the most recent election.† † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States...
  - mrheosuper 1y ago
    The Americans expect the world to constantly make distinctions for them while American foreign policy affects everyone regardless of who individual Americans voted for.
  - orwin 1y ago
    Honestly, if you're not protesting, you're enabling. That's why I dont think all Israelis agree with their government, or all gazaoui agree with Hamas. Protests, regular ones, are happening, on both side. I don't see a lot of those in the US to be fair.
Ylpertnodi 1y ago
> Hardly a mature attitude or an open mind. Not gp, but: sorry, Americans, for whatever voter turnouts, gerrymandering, secret deals, etc, etc. He's your president. Twice.
- Ekaros 1y ago
  In the end as outside I see that you have allowed system to end in place where very divisive candidate won. Maybe if decades ago you had worked towards direction where there was more than two options it could be different... And if the other side would have fielded something that got the other side as passionate as Trump does with his base. Whatever you say at least Trump has truly passionate base. Or will next Democrat nominee be Harris?

CoastalCoder 1y ago

I understand the sentiment, and I can't control how fine of a distinction you're making. In fact, you could legitimately blame people like me for not going further to stop the madness. In my particular case, that could cost me my job, which means losing health insurance for my family and myself. That's a choice I'm making, for sure. To that extent I'm culpable for this situation.

LadyCailin 1y ago
I’ve aleast applied some logic for all countries with shitty leaders. Russia, or Israel, or Gaza (Hamas) for instance. Who is responsible for the shittyness done by the governments of these countries? The governments, obviously. But when harm starts going to other nations, who is most responsible for stopping that? Surely the answer must be the citizens of that country? We can’t expect, say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, to be the morally responsible people and expect them to go in and stage a coup. If they do, maybe that’s fine, but they can’t be held culpable if they do nothing. The citizens however, must be, as there otherwise is no one else to stop the evil. Now, I include the US in this list too. So, while it’s true that US citizens are not directly responsible for Trump, there is still a dereliction of ethical duty happening, in my opinion, assuming we agree that Trump is harming other people unnecessarily (which, naturally, many Trump supporters would disagree with.) Of course, even if I’m right, what does that mean in practice? That random Americans on vacation in Italy can be snatched up and sent to The Hague? No, obviously not. I think the most practical effect is that this should give all Americans pause to think, and to at minimum ensure that they are not contributing to the problem in any way, and better yet, fighting the problem in some way. Of course, this doesn’t even begin to address the fact that only 1/3 or so of Americans voted for Harris, which was the only choice that actually could have worked to stop Trump. 1/3 voted for him directly, and of course they are responsible, but another 1/3 couldn’t be bothered to vote, so it is actually a supermajority of the American people that are shitty, either because they couldn’t care less about other people, or they actively contributed to the problem.
- petralithic 1y ago
  Not everywhere is a democracy though. I'd hesitate to call even the US a democracy and therefore the government is independent of the will of the people.

dotandgtfo 1y ago

What a horrible take. I feel compelled to say that in my experience people in northern Europe can empathize with and separate the population from a dysfunctional two-party political system captured by capital.

JPKab 1y ago
Most of the world engages routinely in tribal thinking without any form of self-reflection. Northern Europe is a distinct exception due to post-enlightenment and post WW2 cultural norms. The commenters in this thread engaging in transactional tribalism are angry at Trump supporters in the US (and therefore, all Americans because of their tribal "us vs them" lens) for engaging in the same transactional tribalism that they live in. From a game theory perspective, they want the US and northern Europeans to continue to be the good person in the Prisoner's Dilemma game while they reap the rewards. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the comments here actually support the beliefs of Trump's base, which is "the world hates us, only pretends to be nice to us when we help make them rich, and power is the only currency that matters." There are people in this thread complaining about tariffs on imports in the US that are a fraction of what their own nations charge on imports. They don't seem to grasp that "fairness" is an emotional construct that matters for human voting.
- watwut 1y ago
  Both sides are the same. Trump and his supporters are the same as people who are their targets .... because it is the same tribalism. > As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the comments here actually support the beliefs of Trump's base, which is "the world hates us, only pretends to be nice to us when we help make them rich, and power is the only currency that matters." When you are t like Trump does, yes you will loose the affection and respect. And besides, Trump and his fans both see those who are friendly to them as suckers to take advantage of. Your wish to be a bully and simultaneously treated like a friend is extremely unrealistic. And not just that, it is a loosing proposition.

UltraSane 1y ago

For this lifelong US citizen Trump's death will be one of the happiest days of my life.

cmxch 1y ago
Which will be dashed by someone that fills the void, and does so without meaningful opportunity to harass him with litigation. His motto may end up being “Oderint Dum Metuant”.
- UltraSane 1y ago
  I honestly feel that Trump's cult of personality is somewhat unique and largely a result of decades of mystique building like his books "Art of the Deal" and The Apprentice. I don't think he would ever have been elected in 2016 if not for The Apprentice. It will be hard for other people to replicate. JD Vance definitely can't do it.