8 ms·

Isn't the easy answer virtual child porn? I really see no reason why this is also illegal except it makes people feel icky. This allows potential rapists to sa

Isn't the easy answer virtual child porn? I really see no reason why this is also illegal except it makes people feel icky. This allows potential rapists to satisfy their desires without harming any actual children.

ricardobeat 14y ago
Why should everyone be "satisfied"? What if a similar percentage of the population has a knack for fresh brains? Maybe that is what all those zombie movies are about: crime prevention.
- Falling3 14y ago
  They should be satisfied if it comes at no harm to others and the alternative is harming others. Isn't that kind of a no-brainer?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    - jeltz 14y ago
      Who is harmed by "virtual child porn"?
      - jtheory 14y ago
        Not the virtual children, certainly. Possibly the viewers, IF (research needed) giving them the ability to watch detailed scenarios of abuse -- possibly with willing "children" -- raises the possibility that they'll abuse a real child and ruin both the child's life and their own. That's an important "if"; I don't know the answer, but I will at least say it's a bit sad we don't have more people calling for research on "what things actually prevent child molestation from happening" -- we just have people calling for harsher sentences, or broader laws, or more sex offender registries.
        tyciol 14y ago
        "giving them the ability to watch detailed scenarios of abuse" You mean like what the police who investigate real tapes have? This 'raises the possibility' thing is a bad slippery slope. Let's argue that playing GTA raises the possibility people will steal cars. This ruins the lives of the car thieves and the people whose cars are stolen! We must avoid that possibility!
      - veidr 14y ago
        If we define harm as being to actual children (not religion/impure-thoughts kind of harm), then the only argument is that future children will be harmed, because the viewer of the porn will have his sexually deviant longings for children reinforced and then, one day, will rape/molest a real child. Personally, I do not buy this argument at all. I think it is very likely that virtual child porn (comic, animation, CG) prevents molestation overall. Because honestly, what do men do when they watch porn? Mainly, jerk off. And then once that's done, the urge is substantially dissipated... and so the subject would be less likely to put themselves at risk committing a sex crime against an actual child (something I understand a lot of molesters also feel guilty about). So my hunch is that virtual child porn is probably a net positive. But I doubt we will ever get good data about this, and anyway it is one of those issues where logic isn't so likely to prevail.
        ceol 14y ago
        Except the concern isn't about satiating the pedophile's need; it's about the pedophile becoming desensitized and eventually normalized to the thought of having sex with a child. They experience "loli" or virtual children, and that would be the gateway to real ones. If you're talking about a trained psychologist prescribing the material to a pedophile, that would be fine, but the vibe I'm getting from this discussion is a bunch of people think if you just open the loli flood-gates, all the pedophiles will stop raping children, and that just won't happen.
        rimantas 14y ago
        I guess by now we are so desensitised to murder and violence by watching action movies and playing video games that it became normal activity for us?
        goggles99 14y ago
        It has for some... It is pretty easy to find stories and interviews online where this is the case. Not everyone is affected the same by the same stimuli, but some are affected deeply.
      - contumace 14y ago
        We wouldn't know what "virtual child porn" could/would be based on (real children depicted in virtual fantasies, pictures of real child abuse etc.). I know virtual child porn is often a reference to unrealistically drawn lolicon material. But what causes much more controversy is realistic material (3D, photorealistic).
        Akemi_Mokoto 14y ago
        The realistic, 3D stuff is a problem. A BIG problem. Not only because it could likely mean a real child was used in the creation but also because anybody who looks at THAT kind of shit is without a doubt, a pedophile.
        tyciol 14y ago
        I don't agree with the assertion. Looking at something does not automatically determine that the observer holds some kind of specific psychological condition. Or are you saying that anyone who dares to click the screwdriver link is a sadist who gets off on people being blinded by metal implements? People can simply look at things out of curiosity, to see what it is, see how they react to it, to fathom why whoever made it made it. Then to wonder how others react to it, and why they might seek it. Having trounced your latter argument, let's get to the first: the problem with 'omg a real child might've been inspired this!' is that could apply to ANYTHING. As in, I can't read a novel where someone gets murdered, because maybe it's based on a real murder. People can just as easily chibi-style 2D art of a rape as they can make a 3D simultation of it. I believe there are actually certain doujin manga whose plot revolve around that concept. Heck you could make a lego depiction of rape, better outlaw looking at controversial lego sculptures too.
      - goggles99 14y ago
        I suppose that you don't believe in brainwashing either. You do not believe that something that we watch continually can change our thoughts or habits. The lines between fantasy and reality never blur for some people right? You don't believe that the human mind can be influenced to believe something that it never believed before or to stop believing something. Evil thoughts or ideas cannot be put into our head that were not there before right? I don't know if you are just playing devil's advocate here or if you are really that ignorant to how what is fed into our minds shape who we are, our convictions, our desires, our conscience. How is shapes our perception of our reality(or lack thereof). How self diluted humans can easily be. If you really are serious than let me just tell you that I am deeply sickened by you and anyone like you.
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    The question is why? "It's ok to picture murdering your entire family over dinner with a fork, as long as you don't really do it". Not, it's not ok. Why would you want to accept and encourage behavior that is not sane?
    - jeltz 14y ago
      It currently is legal to depict murdering people with a fork. Falling3 did not say anything about virtual child porn not being disgusting. He just said it should be legal, just like depicting murder is.
    - unconed 14y ago
      "Why would you want to accept and encourage behavior that is not sane?" Because the evidence continues to stack up in staggering amounts that sexual preference is innate and out of our control. That attempting to suppress it without any outlet is a recipe for a miserable life, possibly leading to dangerous and violent outbursts for perceived injustice and oppression. Whether you like it or not, people are into kinky stuff. When those people fantasize, write stories, draw pictures or dress up and role play, it should be allowed if it harms no-one in the process. It does no good to pretend this is not the case. A friend of mine wrote some kinky erotic fiction, and got a positive response, including from women. Meanwhile, it was other women who sent him angry hate mail, saying no-one in their right mind would ever enjoy this. This is not new, the same has happened with literature such as Lolita. We have to deal with humanity as it is, not how we would like it to be.
      - jtheory 14y ago
        Do you have research to point to, wrt this? Because the evidence continues to stack up in staggering amounts that sexual preference is innate and out of our control. That attempting to suppress it without any outlet is a recipe for a miserable life, possibly leading to dangerous and violent outbursts for perceived injustice and oppression. There's a big jump from "sexual preference is innate" -- e.g., we can't use therapy to make gay boys straight (no, I'm not asking for references for that part!) to saying that preventing a child molester from viewing fake kiddie porn will make him violent (that's the part I strongly question...). Yes, people are into kinky stuff, and I agree that someone sexually drawn to children can't just decide to flip an internal switch and be no longer drawn to them. But I'm keenly interested into what's the best way to work with a kink that's harmful to non-consensual others (like children). There's little if any research available that sheds insight onto how best to handle it, AFAIK. I do think I've read research that it's a bad idea to let people watch & roleplay detailed scenarios of whatever crime they risk committing, though -- it concretizes vague longings (however painful) into actual plans (that's a bad thing). My personal best guess would be that we first need to recognize that pedophilic urges are like a condition that needs to be actively managed so that no one is ever harmed -- not hidden away until the sufferer loses control of themselves. If pedophilic urges were more actively recognized & calmly discussed in society -- like urges to commit violence, which are more common but far more acceptable as well -- and people could seek help (cognitive behavioral therapy?) if they worried about losing control and doing harm, we might see actual harm to children vastly reduced. Currently they absolutely can't seek help; they'll be turned into the police and all of their neighbors/family/coworkers will be questioned. So they're on their own. I have an unpublished blog post on this that was spinning out of control, prompted by my childhood scoutmaster being charged with child molestation (many years later and unrelated to scouting activities, actually) and committing suicide -- one day I'll find a way to get it completed.
anonymoushn 14y ago
We should probably work on legalizing that, then. Right now we're putting people in jail for importing comic books.
Akemi_Mokoto 14y ago
Virtual Child Porn is not illegal(in America) but obscene material is. Obscenity charges are rare and would only apply to hardcore porn if someone ever is brought up on such charges. They are a hard sell so it's not really perused by law enforcement. There is nothing wrong with it. If VCP was to be made illegal, violent video games should be made illegal too. America should follow Finland's footsteps and not makes laws on anything that does not harm someone physically or psychologically.
- tyciol 14y ago
  Why do you try to fill people with a false sense of security Akemi? How do we know obscenity charges are rare? Why should we think it would only apply to 'hardcore' porn? http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-... Perhaps you'd have people believe that Christopher Handley's circumstances are rare, but perhaps they're but a minority of what we manage to see publicized for what it is. Obscenity laws are seriously problem, a cudgel that can be wielded ruthlessly, and people cow in fear to it as Handley did. It must be confronted.

ricardobeat 14y ago

Why should everyone be "satisfied"? What if a similar percentage of the population has a knack for fresh brains? Maybe that is what all those zombie movies are about: crime prevention.

Falling3 14y ago
They should be satisfied if it comes at no harm to others and the alternative is harming others. Isn't that kind of a no-brainer?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - jeltz 14y ago
    Who is harmed by "virtual child porn"?
    - jtheory 14y ago
      Not the virtual children, certainly. Possibly the viewers, IF (research needed) giving them the ability to watch detailed scenarios of abuse -- possibly with willing "children" -- raises the possibility that they'll abuse a real child and ruin both the child's life and their own. That's an important "if"; I don't know the answer, but I will at least say it's a bit sad we don't have more people calling for research on "what things actually prevent child molestation from happening" -- we just have people calling for harsher sentences, or broader laws, or more sex offender registries.
      - tyciol 14y ago
        "giving them the ability to watch detailed scenarios of abuse" You mean like what the police who investigate real tapes have? This 'raises the possibility' thing is a bad slippery slope. Let's argue that playing GTA raises the possibility people will steal cars. This ruins the lives of the car thieves and the people whose cars are stolen! We must avoid that possibility!
    - veidr 14y ago
      If we define harm as being to actual children (not religion/impure-thoughts kind of harm), then the only argument is that future children will be harmed, because the viewer of the porn will have his sexually deviant longings for children reinforced and then, one day, will rape/molest a real child. Personally, I do not buy this argument at all. I think it is very likely that virtual child porn (comic, animation, CG) prevents molestation overall. Because honestly, what do men do when they watch porn? Mainly, jerk off. And then once that's done, the urge is substantially dissipated... and so the subject would be less likely to put themselves at risk committing a sex crime against an actual child (something I understand a lot of molesters also feel guilty about). So my hunch is that virtual child porn is probably a net positive. But I doubt we will ever get good data about this, and anyway it is one of those issues where logic isn't so likely to prevail.
      - ceol 14y ago
        Except the concern isn't about satiating the pedophile's need; it's about the pedophile becoming desensitized and eventually normalized to the thought of having sex with a child. They experience "loli" or virtual children, and that would be the gateway to real ones. If you're talking about a trained psychologist prescribing the material to a pedophile, that would be fine, but the vibe I'm getting from this discussion is a bunch of people think if you just open the loli flood-gates, all the pedophiles will stop raping children, and that just won't happen.
        rimantas 14y ago
        I guess by now we are so desensitised to murder and violence by watching action movies and playing video games that it became normal activity for us?
        goggles99 14y ago
        It has for some... It is pretty easy to find stories and interviews online where this is the case. Not everyone is affected the same by the same stimuli, but some are affected deeply.
    - contumace 14y ago
      We wouldn't know what "virtual child porn" could/would be based on (real children depicted in virtual fantasies, pictures of real child abuse etc.). I know virtual child porn is often a reference to unrealistically drawn lolicon material. But what causes much more controversy is realistic material (3D, photorealistic).
      - Akemi_Mokoto 14y ago
        The realistic, 3D stuff is a problem. A BIG problem. Not only because it could likely mean a real child was used in the creation but also because anybody who looks at THAT kind of shit is without a doubt, a pedophile.
        tyciol 14y ago
        I don't agree with the assertion. Looking at something does not automatically determine that the observer holds some kind of specific psychological condition. Or are you saying that anyone who dares to click the screwdriver link is a sadist who gets off on people being blinded by metal implements? People can simply look at things out of curiosity, to see what it is, see how they react to it, to fathom why whoever made it made it. Then to wonder how others react to it, and why they might seek it. Having trounced your latter argument, let's get to the first: the problem with 'omg a real child might've been inspired this!' is that could apply to ANYTHING. As in, I can't read a novel where someone gets murdered, because maybe it's based on a real murder. People can just as easily chibi-style 2D art of a rape as they can make a 3D simultation of it. I believe there are actually certain doujin manga whose plot revolve around that concept. Heck you could make a lego depiction of rape, better outlaw looking at controversial lego sculptures too.
    - goggles99 14y ago
      I suppose that you don't believe in brainwashing either. You do not believe that something that we watch continually can change our thoughts or habits. The lines between fantasy and reality never blur for some people right? You don't believe that the human mind can be influenced to believe something that it never believed before or to stop believing something. Evil thoughts or ideas cannot be put into our head that were not there before right? I don't know if you are just playing devil's advocate here or if you are really that ignorant to how what is fed into our minds shape who we are, our convictions, our desires, our conscience. How is shapes our perception of our reality(or lack thereof). How self diluted humans can easily be. If you really are serious than let me just tell you that I am deeply sickened by you and anyone like you.
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  The question is why? "It's ok to picture murdering your entire family over dinner with a fork, as long as you don't really do it". Not, it's not ok. Why would you want to accept and encourage behavior that is not sane?
  - jeltz 14y ago
    It currently is legal to depict murdering people with a fork. Falling3 did not say anything about virtual child porn not being disgusting. He just said it should be legal, just like depicting murder is.
  - unconed 14y ago
    "Why would you want to accept and encourage behavior that is not sane?" Because the evidence continues to stack up in staggering amounts that sexual preference is innate and out of our control. That attempting to suppress it without any outlet is a recipe for a miserable life, possibly leading to dangerous and violent outbursts for perceived injustice and oppression. Whether you like it or not, people are into kinky stuff. When those people fantasize, write stories, draw pictures or dress up and role play, it should be allowed if it harms no-one in the process. It does no good to pretend this is not the case. A friend of mine wrote some kinky erotic fiction, and got a positive response, including from women. Meanwhile, it was other women who sent him angry hate mail, saying no-one in their right mind would ever enjoy this. This is not new, the same has happened with literature such as Lolita. We have to deal with humanity as it is, not how we would like it to be.
    - jtheory 14y ago
      Do you have research to point to, wrt this? Because the evidence continues to stack up in staggering amounts that sexual preference is innate and out of our control. That attempting to suppress it without any outlet is a recipe for a miserable life, possibly leading to dangerous and violent outbursts for perceived injustice and oppression. There's a big jump from "sexual preference is innate" -- e.g., we can't use therapy to make gay boys straight (no, I'm not asking for references for that part!) to saying that preventing a child molester from viewing fake kiddie porn will make him violent (that's the part I strongly question...). Yes, people are into kinky stuff, and I agree that someone sexually drawn to children can't just decide to flip an internal switch and be no longer drawn to them. But I'm keenly interested into what's the best way to work with a kink that's harmful to non-consensual others (like children). There's little if any research available that sheds insight onto how best to handle it, AFAIK. I do think I've read research that it's a bad idea to let people watch & roleplay detailed scenarios of whatever crime they risk committing, though -- it concretizes vague longings (however painful) into actual plans (that's a bad thing). My personal best guess would be that we first need to recognize that pedophilic urges are like a condition that needs to be actively managed so that no one is ever harmed -- not hidden away until the sufferer loses control of themselves. If pedophilic urges were more actively recognized & calmly discussed in society -- like urges to commit violence, which are more common but far more acceptable as well -- and people could seek help (cognitive behavioral therapy?) if they worried about losing control and doing harm, we might see actual harm to children vastly reduced. Currently they absolutely can't seek help; they'll be turned into the police and all of their neighbors/family/coworkers will be questioned. So they're on their own. I have an unpublished blog post on this that was spinning out of control, prompted by my childhood scoutmaster being charged with child molestation (many years later and unrelated to scouting activities, actually) and committing suicide -- one day I'll find a way to get it completed.

anonymoushn 14y ago

We should probably work on legalizing that, then. Right now we're putting people in jail for importing comic books.

Akemi_Mokoto 14y ago

Virtual Child Porn is not illegal(in America) but obscene material is. Obscenity charges are rare and would only apply to hardcore porn if someone ever is brought up on such charges. They are a hard sell so it's not really perused by law enforcement. There is nothing wrong with it. If VCP was to be made illegal, violent video games should be made illegal too. America should follow Finland's footsteps and not makes laws on anything that does not harm someone physically or psychologically.

tyciol 14y ago
Why do you try to fill people with a false sense of security Akemi? How do we know obscenity charges are rare? Why should we think it would only apply to 'hardcore' porn? http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-... Perhaps you'd have people believe that Christopher Handley's circumstances are rare, but perhaps they're but a minority of what we manage to see publicized for what it is. Obscenity laws are seriously problem, a cudgel that can be wielded ruthlessly, and people cow in fear to it as Handley did. It must be confronted.