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The real problem is not the child porn. The real problem is "morals", "christianity" and "religion". Only by slaying these you can fix the problem in the long

The real problem is not the child porn. The real problem is "morals", "christianity" and "religion". Only by slaying these you can fix the problem in the long run. So: - If you happen to be religious, quit it right now please. - Press everybody to do that. - If you find yourself pressing your "moral values" on somebody over, quit. - Press everybody to do that. It's pointless anyway since gods aren't real. And your moral values likely aren't very moral in the end. (The main problem - most of people who is affected by this issue aren't on HN; most of people on HN aren't affected)

mrkurt 14y ago
"Protect the children" is a much, much broader issue than oppression for religious regions.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  It is a symptom. The cause is religions - people who think they've got to impose their interpretation of morality (to which they themselves do not conform) on wide public. It is made clearly in the article that bad laws are lobbied by religious fundamentalists. Since religions have no value, I say clean it up.
  - prodigal_erik 14y ago
    It's socially somewhat acceptable to fantasize aloud about torturing child abusers, even for members of religions that have disavowed torture for several generations. I think this is driven by an instinctive rage rather than a cynical strategy by leaders of religions. Making child porn more inaccessible than abusable children has obvious drawbacks besides starting down the path to crimethink, though.
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      Okay, but is it acceptable to fantasize aloud about torturing teenagers having sex or exchanging photos of their own? I find this gravely worrysome.
      - contumace 14y ago
        Laws can't stop that from happening.
  - TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
    > It is a symptom. The cause is religions - people who think they've got to impose their interpretation of morality (to which they themselves do not conform) on wide public. Hold on here. It's mainly the right winger Christians who are co-opting laws into their own religion based law. And the statement is also just factually false: not every religion tries to force their rules on the country. If you were to call me a label of belief, I'd be a pagan. Old Gods, magic, divination, and all that. So I'm trying to force (or any of those I know who practice) our laws on others? We don't have religious edicts or laws! Instead, people like my girlfriend was subbing in the local high school, until a fellow teacher saw her wear a pentagram outside of school. She was gone by the week. If you read any of the "pagan" news, its articles how only until recently, a cross was put on the burial stone for deceased military members, regardless of religious affiliation. Or, how Gideon groups still pass out those bibles to elementary schools. Or even the cases of religions classes teaching christianity only, neglecting all other beliefs. >It is made clearly in the article that bad laws are lobbied by religious fundamentalists. Since religions have no value, I say clean it up. I agree with a part: Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists of any organisation are a poison. Christians are fine, fundies, no. Same with Islam, and Buddhism, and Hinduism, and Taoism, and Paganism, and all the other isms. You add fundie, and "Bad Shit Happens".
    - billswift 14y ago
      And as Dawkins pointed out, in the most important point in The God Delusion, the religious "moderates" provide epistemic cover and support for the nutjobs. You are enablers of the terrorists and other extremists.
      - TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
        Perhaps you missed this part, but I actively work magick and do divination. That puts me on the hated list for the christian nutjobs, and most christians in general. And Jews. And Muslims. According to Wolfram Alpha, that's 49% of the world. We pagans aren't trying to get 'pagan laws' in place, nor are we forcing our will on others. In all, we are trying to get government to honor the first amendment: get religious practices out of schools (and government in general) . We do that by demanding equal access to that of christians. And frankly, you come across as a militant hard atheist. I do not accept any argument from Dawkins based on tautology. Please prove YOUR viewpoint as true. I'll do the same when you do. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28population+of+Christians+%2B+population+of+Jews+%2B+population+of+Muslims%29%2F+%28earth+population%29 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28population+of+Christ...
objclxt 14y ago
This is a really terrible argument. You say "if you find yourself pressing your "moral values" on somebody over, quit", but then impose your own moral values upon everyone else. I'm an atheist, but I also accept that religion isn't necessarily the cause of all moral problems, but merely a conduit through which they flow. Find me a Catholic who's against abortion and I'll find you an atheist who feels the same way. A wholly atheistic society would still have many of the moral and ethical problems we face today - the arguments for and against them would merely manifest themselves differently.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  The problem with Catholics lies not in the fact that they are against abortion, but in the fact that they are against somebody else's abortion. They somehow got the idea that instead of helping poor raise their children, talking to pregnant girls, all the good stuff - they can just take a big stick and make things illegal. As if it helps anybody. This is where we have a problem, as you can see. Mentoring people to not have sex because Jesus didn't is one thing. Throwing people in jails is a kind of mortal sin, but for religion. They did it so now they aren't saved.
  - angersock 14y ago
    You are painting in such broad strokes here that you don't really seem to be contributing anything reasonable. You do realize this, right? I don't know where you get this notion of not "helping poor raise their children". Even if accurate, you haven't explained why that's good or bad. What's the "good stuff"? If you want to go bandy about how awful Big Jesus is, you really need to have more thorough rhetoric.
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      If you dislike S(omething) (e.g. abortions) you can go two ways. First, you can help people avoid S. You can argue against S. You can support people who rejected S. You can give prizes to people who skip S. Second, you can violate whatever social conventions there were and make S illegal. This means more people in jails, this means pain, doubt, suffer. This does NOT guarantee any reduction of S, however. Religious organizations chose the latter, so they are like dead to me now. And they should be for you, to. "Christanity. Making your laws worse since 33 AD"
mseebach 14y ago
Never mind the irony of your crusade to end the pressing of moral values onto others itself constituting pressing of values onto others, you seem to completely misunderstand the concepts of morality and religion. Please read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt if you care to broaden your horizon a little.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  Care to highlight the "correct" understanding in 140 characters or less?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

mrkurt 14y ago

"Protect the children" is a much, much broader issue than oppression for religious regions.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
It is a symptom. The cause is religions - people who think they've got to impose their interpretation of morality (to which they themselves do not conform) on wide public. It is made clearly in the article that bad laws are lobbied by religious fundamentalists. Since religions have no value, I say clean it up.
- prodigal_erik 14y ago
  It's socially somewhat acceptable to fantasize aloud about torturing child abusers, even for members of religions that have disavowed torture for several generations. I think this is driven by an instinctive rage rather than a cynical strategy by leaders of religions. Making child porn more inaccessible than abusable children has obvious drawbacks besides starting down the path to crimethink, though.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    Okay, but is it acceptable to fantasize aloud about torturing teenagers having sex or exchanging photos of their own? I find this gravely worrysome.
    - contumace 14y ago
      Laws can't stop that from happening.
- TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
  > It is a symptom. The cause is religions - people who think they've got to impose their interpretation of morality (to which they themselves do not conform) on wide public. Hold on here. It's mainly the right winger Christians who are co-opting laws into their own religion based law. And the statement is also just factually false: not every religion tries to force their rules on the country. If you were to call me a label of belief, I'd be a pagan. Old Gods, magic, divination, and all that. So I'm trying to force (or any of those I know who practice) our laws on others? We don't have religious edicts or laws! Instead, people like my girlfriend was subbing in the local high school, until a fellow teacher saw her wear a pentagram outside of school. She was gone by the week. If you read any of the "pagan" news, its articles how only until recently, a cross was put on the burial stone for deceased military members, regardless of religious affiliation. Or, how Gideon groups still pass out those bibles to elementary schools. Or even the cases of religions classes teaching christianity only, neglecting all other beliefs. >It is made clearly in the article that bad laws are lobbied by religious fundamentalists. Since religions have no value, I say clean it up. I agree with a part: Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists of any organisation are a poison. Christians are fine, fundies, no. Same with Islam, and Buddhism, and Hinduism, and Taoism, and Paganism, and all the other isms. You add fundie, and "Bad Shit Happens".
  - billswift 14y ago
    And as Dawkins pointed out, in the most important point in The God Delusion, the religious "moderates" provide epistemic cover and support for the nutjobs. You are enablers of the terrorists and other extremists.
    - TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
      Perhaps you missed this part, but I actively work magick and do divination. That puts me on the hated list for the christian nutjobs, and most christians in general. And Jews. And Muslims. According to Wolfram Alpha, that's 49% of the world. We pagans aren't trying to get 'pagan laws' in place, nor are we forcing our will on others. In all, we are trying to get government to honor the first amendment: get religious practices out of schools (and government in general) . We do that by demanding equal access to that of christians. And frankly, you come across as a militant hard atheist. I do not accept any argument from Dawkins based on tautology. Please prove YOUR viewpoint as true. I'll do the same when you do. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28population+of+Christians+%2B+population+of+Jews+%2B+population+of+Muslims%29%2F+%28earth+population%29 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28population+of+Christ...

objclxt 14y ago

This is a really terrible argument. You say "if you find yourself pressing your "moral values" on somebody over, quit", but then impose your own moral values upon everyone else. I'm an atheist, but I also accept that religion isn't necessarily the cause of all moral problems, but merely a conduit through which they flow. Find me a Catholic who's against abortion and I'll find you an atheist who feels the same way. A wholly atheistic society would still have many of the moral and ethical problems we face today - the arguments for and against them would merely manifest themselves differently.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
The problem with Catholics lies not in the fact that they are against abortion, but in the fact that they are against somebody else's abortion. They somehow got the idea that instead of helping poor raise their children, talking to pregnant girls, all the good stuff - they can just take a big stick and make things illegal. As if it helps anybody. This is where we have a problem, as you can see. Mentoring people to not have sex because Jesus didn't is one thing. Throwing people in jails is a kind of mortal sin, but for religion. They did it so now they aren't saved.
- angersock 14y ago
  You are painting in such broad strokes here that you don't really seem to be contributing anything reasonable. You do realize this, right? I don't know where you get this notion of not "helping poor raise their children". Even if accurate, you haven't explained why that's good or bad. What's the "good stuff"? If you want to go bandy about how awful Big Jesus is, you really need to have more thorough rhetoric.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    If you dislike S(omething) (e.g. abortions) you can go two ways. First, you can help people avoid S. You can argue against S. You can support people who rejected S. You can give prizes to people who skip S. Second, you can violate whatever social conventions there were and make S illegal. This means more people in jails, this means pain, doubt, suffer. This does NOT guarantee any reduction of S, however. Religious organizations chose the latter, so they are like dead to me now. And they should be for you, to. "Christanity. Making your laws worse since 33 AD"

mseebach 14y ago

Never mind the irony of your crusade to end the pressing of moral values onto others itself constituting pressing of values onto others, you seem to completely misunderstand the concepts of morality and religion. Please read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt if you care to broaden your horizon a little.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
Care to highlight the "correct" understanding in 140 characters or less?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]