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> Homeless people, new mothers and low-income Americans all over the country received thousands of dollars. And it's practically invisible in the data. On so ma
by bko 1y ago
> Homeless people, new mothers and low-income Americans all over the country received thousands of dollars. And it's practically invisible in the data. On so many important metrics, these people are statistically indistinguishable from those who did not receive this aid.
> I cannot stress how shocking I find this and I want to be clear that this is not “we got some weak counterevidence.”
I don't think this is surprising when considering personal experience with people, at least not for me.
I know people with various degrees of success in their lives. For instance, you meet someone who is chronically broke. At first, you empathize and see them as more or less a victim of misfortune. Unseen car repair bills, job losses, etc. But if its someone you follow over years and get to know, you begin to realize a lot of their problems are self inflicted. For instance, they may get a new job with a big pay raise. But they just adjust their spending up. Some windfall that could turn things around becomes a vacation. And so on.
The same is true with other personal problems. Like the perpetually single person, who upon further examination, doesn't do anything to help their chances. Or the overweight person with a thyroid problem, that really just over indulges.
Helping people we're close to and love is hard enough. I can't imagine just solving some strangers problems by writing them a check
- ryandrake 1y ago> For instance, you meet someone who is chronically broke. At first, you empathize and see them as more or less a victim of misfortune. Unseen car repair bills, job losses, etc. But if it's someone you follow over years and get to know, you begin to realize a lot of their problems are self inflicted. For instance, they may get a new job with a big pay raise. But they just adjust their spending up. Some windfall that could turn things around becomes a vacation. And so on. AND, they are enabled and pushed into this mentality by other, also-not-very-financially-savvy people in their lives. When that once in a lifetime $1,000 windfall comes in, everyone around them tells them "Come on, blow it on a vacation! You shouldn't deny yourself a little luxury if it makes you feel good! You can't just eat ramen every day, here's your chance to live a little!" and suddenly they're back where they started, pre-windfall.
- 7speter 1y ago1000 dollars for a vacation?
- MisterTea 1y agoIt's an example not to be taken literally.
- margalabargala 1y agoI honestly am not sure whether you think $1000 is way too much or way too little for a vacation, and am curious which you thought.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Jensson 1y agoCovers train tickets and hotel for a week if you don't choose an expensive hotel. For a poor person that is much better than nothing.
- firesteelrain 1y agoI just went on business travel with the lowest possible fare and it was more than $1k. Stayed in a cheap hotel too. And that included zero activities
- IAmBroom 1y agoI just went on vacation for two weeks, and it cost me about $100 in gas. Anecdotes are fun!
- firesteelrain 1y agoWhat is your point? Please add value to the conversation instead of snark
- catigula 1y agoThe problem is that cash windfalls don't build wealth. You need consistent income to do much of anything in this world that matters that can be traced, tracked, expressed in credit reports and used to back loans for serious purchases like cars and homes. If you simply gave young people $100k - which is a number nobody is seriously throwing around - what do you think they would materially gain from it? Very little. Their ability to purchase a home is still income-based and far more than a $100k windfall in many parts of the US can sustain for much time at all and everything else is just a slow bleed.
- next_xibalba 1y agoI think the idea behind these types of programs is not to solve all problems or realize all goals of its beneficiaries, but rather to provide some cushion against small financial upsets that would otherwise derail a person living on the edge of insolvency.
- catigula 1y agoIt seems like the evidence falsifies this idea, though. Just based on what I'm reading it's very likely that your idea of how people are railed or de-railed from life success might not comport entirely with reality, i.e. there aren't really small financial problems that people ride the razor's edge to insolvency. My understanding of financial problems is that they can only be resolved through huge cash infusions (likely about enough to buy a home outright) or through long-term cash infusions (i.e. a guaranteed well-paying job). We don't have any mechanisms to provide these things to people, the costs of living are too extreme. I can't suggest anything better, I'm just pointing out the issue.
- IAmBroom 1y ago3rd option that has evidence-based success: Universal Basic Income.
- bko 1y agoCash windfalls can absolutely build wealth. Think of it another way, I hear that big cash expenses can destroy wealth. For instance, if you have no cash reserves, that means you may rely on pay day lenders. You can't afford a Costco membership. You don't have a car so you're limited on where you can work and shop. You cannot afford some vocational training or some time off to train. There are a lot of things that can save or make you money long term. Also 100k invested in the market will yield you probably around 7k, which is a lot, especially you don't touch it and let it compound.
- next_xibalba 1y agoYours exactly mirrors my own experiences with people who have chronic problems in life. It has been dispiriting in some ways, but freeing in others. The feeling of “if I could just do <x> for them” gives way to an acceptance about the limits of our power to influence others and an accompanying lightening of emotional burden.
- bko 1y agoIt's really hard accepting this, which is why I believe younger people are more naive. It's easier to believe everyone is a victim, but with enough life experience and experience a larger variety of people, you learn that not everyone is just like you. There are huge discrepancies in competence, seriousness, work ethic and a million other things. Victims absolutely exist, but the best working assumption is that someone has the results they have due to personal decisions. And this equally applies to yourself. If you feel something is wrong or missing in your life, it's best to assume its based on decisions that you made.
- simonask 1y agoIsn’t it pretty obvious that it’s possible to be a victim of more than specific financial circumstances or poor health? The inheritance we (don’t) get is not just monetary, it is attitude, culture, expectations, education, network, class privilege, race privilege, and a host of other things that make it difficult to act “rationally”, or which change the parameters of what is rational for each individual. Lack of money never helps, but it’s rarely the only problem.
- frsantos 1y agoI’m older and the problem I’ve had is that if you stop giving regularly, you probably will continue not to give. So, articles like this with the best intent just lead to people giving less and not volunteering or providing any other help. If you think giving money doesn’t help, then try a massive reduction in giving and see how that helps. Programs get cut, people get desperate and more mentally unbalanced, start doing drugs, start selling drugs, and they start killing people.
- shadowtree 1y agoSo its protection money. Give money to the poor so they don't kill you. Awesome.
- simonask 1y agoThere’s a Just World Fallacy if I ever saw one.
- immibis 1y agoIt's also literally true. Violent revolutions in history come about when the people are fed up with the king and also have the means to do one. It's also true the other way: you have to pay rent (poor pays rich) or else their thugs come and beat you up. Pretty much everyone wants your money or they'll do what you can to make your life worse. You'll also do what you can to make other people's life worse if they don't give you enough money, like not working for them.
- bloak 1y agoYes, in a way, but I think the person you replied to said it better!
- spaceguillotine 1y agoNah you gotta work for the rich or they WILL kill you by denying health care, shelter, and food.
- alfiedotwtf 1y agoFrom that perspective, are you advocating society should abandon people who cannot help themselves? To me, that’s the point!
- IAmBroom 1y agoPresumably: "that's the point [of a society]". Correct me if wrong.
- alfiedotwtf 1y agoTotally on point. I’m as free-market-laissez-faire as they come, but without guard rails, taking it to its logical conclusion then there should only be a single person in the world holding all the money!!
- IAmBroom 1y agoWhat you say is 100% true for some. I saw a poor family run a fundraiser for themselves; they spent $300 on a donation party that brought in < $50 (and was unadvertised except amongst friends). Truly dumb implementation, by not-dumb people. It is 100% not true for others. My neighbors know every damn trick in the book for welfare; it's a part of their budget. More money removes serious obstacles in their days.