9 ms·

Why I'm all-in on Zen Browser

130 points by benwerd 1y ago

ebiester 1y ago
Last time I tried it, I couldn't figure out how to configure the container tabs. Has that become easier?
drfoku2 1y ago
I want to like Zen but remember this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494 Is it safe enough now? Also, anyone have an update on Ladybird? Looks like its dev is still going strong, but I haven’t been watching it carefully.
- pimeys 1y ago
  17 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44765292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44765292
- akshat2602 1y ago
  The devs did address the backdoor and privacy issues.
deleted 1y ago
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ProfessorZoom 1y ago
everytime i go all in a browser, including when i went all in on zen, eventually i go back to regular chrome. every single time
- ur-whale 1y ago
  > eventually i go back to regular chrome I guess being given a daily colonoscopy by your browser and the results being reported to GOOG isn't high on your list of concerns then.
account-5 1y ago
Have they fixed the backdoor yet? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494
- akshat2602 1y ago
  If you go through the issues and the discussions, linked in the article that you yourself linked, you'll see that the devs addressed the backdoor and privacy issues.
  - account-5 1y ago
    Ok.
- nusl 1y ago
  As far as I know, yes.
grigio 1y ago
Brave is faster and the features are similar
- NikxDa 1y ago
  Brave however is riddled with Crypto and AI crap. It doesn't have any useable support for multiple profiles, too: last time I tried it, it would end up showing various errors on every startup and you couldn't have two profiles in the same window.
  - ochronus 1y ago
    What does "riddled with Crypto and AI crap" mean here?
    - nusl 1y ago
      If you download Brave and run it you'll see; many pop-ups and random things in the UI you don't want
      - ochronus 1y ago
        I've been running it for years; I see none of what you mention. I turned off a couple of settings (literally took <5 minutes) and I don't see anything crypto or AI related anymore.
        mantra2 1y ago
        Same. I’ve been using it exclusively on macOS and iOS for a few years now. When you first open it they do show you all those features but as ochronous said you can completely disable them. If they forced crypto and AI on me I’d be out in a flash.
        ochronus 1y ago
        To me, any other browser's initial "hello" screens are similarly "annoying", including Firefox. It's just a setup hurdle one needs to get over.
grim_io 1y ago
What does it even mean to be all-in on a browser? You can switch any time, multiple times per day even.
- stronglikedan 1y ago
  Right? I use Chrome for personal because it just syncs well with my phone. I use FF for business because it's a bit clunkier than Chrome but still acceptable, and more importantly, completely separate. I use Edge to run one off webapps here and there, where I don't want the window previews to appear and clutter things up when hovering over one of the other browsers in the task bar.
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  And the nice thing for me with Zen is that switching between Zen and Firefox is even lower cost, because they sync with each other.
- mantra2 1y ago
  Because “Lately I use Zen” isn’t as catchy of a title.
- eviks 1y ago
  No, not if you are "all in" and spend enough time customizing it or getting used to the UI/features uniquely available to a specific browser. You won't be able to switch multiple times a day without noticing a lot of friction as you common workflows break down
  - at-fates-hands 1y ago
    In my role I have to do a lot of testing on different browsers so the least amount of friction is little to no customization, the only plugins are the ones I need for testing and nothing else. When I was a developer, I fell into the trap of trying to customize everything, only to have to keep doing it once a new browser or extension came out. I gave up trying to get something exactly the way I wanted it. I use as close to stock as possible in order to avoid the kind of friction you're talking about.
Semaphor 1y ago
I tried Zen for a while (1-2 months). It certainly has some cool features. But in the end, I returned to Vanilla FF and installed Sideberry [0] with custom userChrome.css [1]. It gets me 99% of what I used with Zen (tree tabs, workspaces), but without annoyances/anti-features (inconvenient url bar for editing, frequent UI changes, cute animations that ignore prefer-reduced-motion, performance, security worries etc.). I’m relatively happy with my setup [2] now, what I miss most from Zen would be the 2-level pinned tabs (pinned per workspace, and globally pinned), and the design of globals pins (instead of a line on the side as in [2], it’s a grid at the top for Zen), but not even close to enough that I’d want to return. [0]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sidebery/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sidebery/ [1]: https://github.com/mbnuqw/sidebery/wiki/Firefox-Styles-Snippets-(via-userChrome.css) https://github.com/mbnuqw/sidebery/wiki/Firefox-Styles-Snipp... [2]: https://i.imgur.com/v9a6VRw.png https://i.imgur.com/v9a6VRw.png
- vinnymac 1y ago
  I did almost the same thing about 9 months ago. I am rooting for Zen despite currently maining with Firefox. I have to have all the browsers and nightlies installed anyways, so I might as well personalize it to work best for my needs. I imagine not everyone is like us, and something like Zen being zero config is a big deal.
- flashblaze 1y ago
  A big hurdle for me is the lack of Widevine which for some reason not a lot of people mention: https://docs.zen-browser.app/faq#why-cant-zen-browser-play-drm-protected-content https://docs.zen-browser.app/faq#why-cant-zen-browser-play-d...
  - ravetcofx 1y ago
    strange Spotify works for me in Zen out out of the box on the Flatpak version.
    - flashblaze 1y ago
NikxDa 1y ago
Zen still has some annoying shortcomings, like missing Widevine DRM or the dev tools opening up annoyingly slow. The potential is there, but it wasn't quite daily drivable as a developer for me just yet as of a few weeks ago. Once it gets there, I too will finally leave Arc behind. Until then, while it is on life support, Arc actually works. I really wish The Browser Company would just own up to their fuck up and revive it.
- elashri 1y ago
  Regarding the DRM support, they are trying to get Widevine license from Google [1] but for some reason Google approval process is taking too long. [1] https://docs.zen-browser.app/faq#why-cant-zen-browser-play-drm-protected-content https://docs.zen-browser.app/faq#why-cant-zen-browser-play-d...
xnx 1y ago
We're past the point were small aesthetic changes like this make a meaningful difference in browsers. In 2025 a browser that really acts as a user agent needs to do much more at the content level: ad blocking, content rewriting (clickbait headlines, etc.), content aggregation and summarization, deceptive content idenification, automatic reader-mode, etc.
- XorNot 1y ago
  Man that really hits me for a killer app for LLMs: headline identification and summarization. Rewrite "could X be Y?" headlines with the answer.
  - thewebguyd 1y ago
    Safari's reader mode summaries aren't too bad for this. They are usually short, under a paragraph. It'd be nice if you could "3D touch" the headline to just load that summary in the little preview window instead of having to click, and then open in reader mode though. I can see that being a really nice built-in browser feature, to load a summary on hover over a link.
    - rswerve 1y ago
      Arc has this, though I used it less than I thought I would, mostly because the summaries were too short to be helpful.
- acheron 1y ago
  The extent that we need so many lines of defense versus web developers is astonishing. Congrats to everyone working to make the Internet worse; you’ve had a very successful couple of decades.
- eviks 1y ago
  In 2025 we still largely fail at the very basics of good UI in many apps, browsers included, so we're nowhere near the point where these extra features you describe are the only way to make a meaningful difference
aclatuts 1y ago
I still really like the Arc browser. Other browsers are still missing some of the small UI/UX things Arc has.
bravetraveler 1y ago
Never go all-in
joey486DX4 1y ago
I liked Zen, but there was a time when every new update introduced a new behavior. Weird stuff like how the URL bar is handled for new tabs, or how videos are played. It was unexpected and annoying. I don't know if they are over this phase. I went back to Firefox.
- willi59549879 1y ago
  that annoyed me too. you set the browser up how you want it and in the next update it works in a different way.
gbrindisi 1y ago
I can't use Google Meet on firefox/zen, I tried every setting combination I could find but the video call quality is still not comparable to chromium based browsers, so at work I reluctantly switched to Vivaldi. If you figure this out please let me know!
- mariusor 1y ago
  I think it's widely speculated that Google sabotages how their own products work in Firefox. I don't know if there is actual evidence to support that though.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  Have you tried switching your User Agent (with or without a helper extension) to Chrome/Chromium/Edge to see if that makes a difference? I have heard that some G sites that are clunky or broken seem to work better under Firefox when it identifies itself as Chrome.
- wlonkly 1y ago
  I'm in a Zoom shop now, but when I was in a Meet/Hangouts shop, I used Chrome for that, and Firefox for everything else. If you're on a Mac, the utility Choosy can send links to appropriate browsers based on patterns.
cycomanic 1y ago
It's weird how people always complain about lack of easy profile switching in Firefox. If one tells them that what they are really looking for is containers, they dismiss containers, but then proceed to complain that profiles don't have the same features. If you want sync across browser instances, manage them with one Firefox account... You really want containers not profiles.
- codepoet80 1y ago
  Agreed. Containers are the reason I use Firefox -- they are a much better fit than profiles. But I've not been able to successfully communicate that to Chrome users. Its like their mental model is stuck, and they can't grasp the differences.
  - reddit_clone 1y ago
    Yep. Containers are great. But haven't seen anyone else using it near me though. One feature I was missing from Chrome was Tab Groups. But recently (I don't know when it started) the feature showed up in FireFox too :-)
  - celsoazevedo 1y ago
    Containers are a better fit for... what containers do. They're the wrong tool when you want to separate, let's say, personal and work bookmarks, extensions, etc. For example, I have a main profile where I have personal bookmarks and different extensions (and more aggressive adblocking). I also have a work profile with a different theme, different bookmarks, extensions, etc. And I use containers in both. Containers are nice, but they're not profiles. We have to understand that not everyone can or wants to have one profile with everything in it.
  - prinny_ 1y ago
    As a Firefox user I could also say the same for other Firefox users. Every time profiles are mentioned and people mention containers it feels like they don’t get the use case. I want a dev profile with dev book marks and a daily profile with my non dev bookmarks. And I would also like dev plugins on one profile and different themes between these profiles. I believe this is something containers can’t offer.
tapoxi 1y ago
I've been using Zen for a few months after I lost faith in Arc/The Browser Company. I like the workflow of swiping between profiles, vertical tabs and pinned favorites. I haven't been able to find a browser that works just like that. I'd prefer to use Chromium over Firefox though, that's the only downside. I keep running into weird Firefox specific issues. Passkeys didn't work properly (and still won't support TouchID), pages don't render correctly, etc.
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jhaile 1y ago
To be fair I haven't tried Zen, but Arc still works well. I don't particularly need any new features - so as long as they continue to keep up with timely security patches and Chromium updates I'll probably keep using it. Also - as a developer I would prefer using a Chromium-based browser since it's the most common one used. I tried Dia a few weeks back and was disappointed in its sidebar and profile features.
- schnable 1y ago
  Agree, unfortunately Chromium is one of the killer features of Arc.
pokechamp 1y ago
I used zen. it used all my cpu. I stopped using zen.
- ewf 1y ago
  if the fan starts - force quit
tummler 1y ago
Oh, to be new to Zen again. That lovely honeymoon phase. Give it a few weeks/months. Bugs, random UI changes, odd development priorities. I wanted to love it, I really did.
- thewebguyd 1y ago
  I use this userchrome.css to replicate some of the zen UI in vanilla firefox: https://github.com/akkva/gwfox https://github.com/akkva/gwfox UI isn't the only thing zen does, but anything else I just adjusted myself + some custom uBlock Origin filters and I'm good to go.
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  I've been using it for maybe 6 months now, and I'm still enjoying it. The only things that I couldn't get by properly configuring an up-to-date Firefox (with userChrome.css) are compact mode, workspaces, and peek, though, so it wouldn't take too many annoyances to send me back to Firefox.
- amanzi 1y ago
  Yep, I switched back to Firefox after loving Zen for a while. The latest UI change that tipped me over the edge was to remove the ability to use Firefox themes.
- cassianoleal 1y ago
  Your experience matches my early days with it. That said, it's been pretty solid in the last few months.
x3n0ph3n3 1y ago
Is there support for uBlock on Zen? I refuse to use a browser without it.
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  It supports all the extensions desktop Firefox supports.
Alifatisk 1y ago
Also switched to Zen on all my devices (except ios sadly). Been a blast
eviks 1y ago
> way; it was superpowered with keyboard shortcuts that just made sense No, that's under-powered. Powered is when you can define multiple simple custom shortcuts (as far as I understand, at least Zen allows 1 shortcut change for some commands (unlike 0 in the dumb FF), so halfway there, not sure about Arc). Super powered is when you can add key sequences and keys without modifiers depending on context in addition to a simple shortcuts. Uberpowered would be the equivalent of QMK within the app (tap vs hold, home row mods left vs right alt, all 4 modifiers, etc etc), but when you can have conditions based on app contexts and dynamic user defined conditions (eg, in the simplest way, have vim-like modal editing in text fields with word jumps and single key navigation outside). While uberpowered apps are unicorns, among relatively known browsers think only Vivaldi has has power > Firefox remains the gold standard for user-first browsing. What's gold about poor customization (no keybind, but also changing UI is cumbersome) and bad defaults? > why isn’t it Firefox? Oh, why indeed! Something about lack of incentives to innovate of even listen to users much when you're a big company financed by "ulterior" sources
- steve_adams_86 1y ago
  > Powered is when you can define multiple simple custom shortcuts You nailed it. It drives me insane that FF and Zen are unable to be customized. A huge appeal for me with Arc was that suddenly I could use my keyboard more using shortcuts that made sense. Arc does allow customization as well: https://resources.arc.net/hc/en-us/articles/20595231349911-Keyboard-Shortcuts https://resources.arc.net/hc/en-us/articles/20595231349911-K... I'm off of Arc due to the lack of maintenance and decreasing efficiency; it kills my laptop's battery remarkably quickly and it's kind of crazy to bother with it anymore. edit: I'm an idiot. Zen has a settings pane for keyboard shortcuts. This is great: https://docs.zen-browser.app/user-manual/shortcuts https://docs.zen-browser.app/user-manual/shortcuts I think I tested Zen in early 2024 and it looks like shortcuts were revamped in mid-2024. Time flies.
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runjake 1y ago
> Mozilla should take this team, absorb it, and use it to help navigate the future of their flagship browser for end users. No. Mozilla's leadership would ruin it, too. Firefox by itself is great technology. That's not the problem. The Mozilla leadership, incentives, and org structure is the problem.
sam1r 1y ago
>>> added AI to a browser framework that isn’t a million miles away from stock Chrome. Wow, very well put. I love how mobile browsers are not even in the conversation.
dira3 1y ago
So what is their monetization model? What can one expect from this product or company in the future? Can't find answers on their About page: https://zen-browser.app/about/ https://zen-browser.app/about/
- runjake 1y ago
  I think you posted the answer to your own question. They don't appear to be a company. They are an open source project. They request donations. > We are simply a group of developers and designers who care about your experience on the web.
ewf 1y ago
feels like people keep wanting more and more from the browser. I just want it to stay out the way. Lightweight, good dev tools, good privacy settings.
- ur-whale 1y ago
  > feels like people keep wanting more and more from the browser. The browser is the new OS, so no wonder there.
  - BoredPositron 1y ago
    The browser is the new paper you still need a desk.
    - ewf 1y ago
      Ten years ago we installed ad blockers. Now we want AI to surveil us.
osener 1y ago
I tried Zen for a few months. I like the UX, even more than Arc in many places. But it is just too slow for me on an M1 Max. I've switched back to Orion. Even though I miss some goodies such as Firefox containers, I just need the browser to get out of the way, not use too much power and not warm up my laptop with runaway processes. Plus, tree-style tabs are great.
wuhhh 1y ago
I've been trying All The Browsers lately and Arc is definitely still my favourite; I actually had no idea that development had stopped on it, that's a shame. Zen looks good, but they are off the charts on this graph! https://sizeof.cat/post/web-browser-telemetry-2025-edition/ https://sizeof.cat/post/web-browser-telemetry-2025-edition/ What is going on there? Their Privacy Policy says no telemetry, but then they have a section on those connections made at startup which apparently are "necessary for the proper functioning of the browser and are not used for tracking or profiling purposes"... they then go on to say "can be disabled through the browser flags (about:config)" Does that mean the browser will no longer function correctly? Among the connections made (according to the report) are x.com, google.com (plus a bunch of other google domains). reddit.com and notion.com, discordapp.com, cloudflareinsights.com
- wahnfrieden 1y ago
  It's just obvious bullshit
- zamadatix 1y ago
  > Among the connections made (according to the report) are x.com, google.com (plus a bunch of other google domains). reddit.com and notion.com, discordapp.com, cloudflareinsights.com Reddit, X, Discord, and Notion are all part of the default sites in the sidebar. Perhaps it's loading them to grab the favicons and such, leading to all of their calls to CDNs, analytics, etc being called.
  - wuhhh 1y ago
    Thanks for calling that out, I had not got as far as installing the browser so had no idea they were default favourites / shortcuts. Seems like that telemetry report has given a couple of browser vendors the kick they needed to reduce initial connections. I wonder how much of an effect this stuff has on how snappy it feels to actually open these applications. In my dock I currently have FF and FF nightly, Chrome, Ungoogled Chrome, Arc and Safari. Ungoogled loads in the blink of an eye, the rest are all shades of sluggish. I guess this is the price of having a few extensions and “quality of life” features :shrug:
perryizgr8 1y ago
Is there a browser apart from Firefox that let's you switch tabs in most recently used order? I just cannot live without this.
- alxndr13 1y ago
  you can do using vimium :)
alxndr13 1y ago
using zen since about 7 months for all of my daily work + on my personal computer. the issues the comments describe here, never had those. it "just" works for me. donated to the project, i hope they go a long way.
gethly 1y ago
I've used Zen for a while but it had bugs with addressbar and there was no interest in fixing it, so i moved on. Competition is always good.
steve_adams_86 1y ago
> And ironically, The Browser Company now charges $20/month, the same amount I would gladly have paid for Arc. As crazy as this probably sounds, I would have been content to pay for Arc to continue being developed as well. It had real energy behind it, some great ideas, and it was improving a tool I use daily. I'm using Zen as well, now.
jimmydoe 1y ago
Nothing against Zen, but if you prefer stay Firefox but crave for some UI sugar, try https://github.com/greeeen-dev/natsumi-browser https://github.com/greeeen-dev/natsumi-browser
gxonatano 1y ago
As a student of Zen Buddhism, I'm always a little bothered to see yet another thing called "Zen" that has virtually nothing to do with Zen, or Buddhism. The authors seem to think that "Zen" is a synonym for "calm," even though calm abiding is only one small aspect of Zen. If you read any of the classic Zen literature, like the Gateless Gate or the Blue Cliff Record, you'd come away with the impression that Zen is very active, vital, and vigorous. But with a name like Zen, I at least expected the browser to be one of those tabless ones that encourage you to focus your attention on the present task, by enforcing one web page at a time. Or a text-based one, like w3m, that removes graphics to allow you to focus on the words. While the Zen browser interface is a little cleaner, with fewer buttons and things, that doesn't necessarily translate to "calmer." Calm is what you bring to the browsing experience, not what you take away from it.

130 points by benwerd 1y ago

Last time I tried it, I couldn't figure out how to configure the container tabs. Has that become easier?

I want to like Zen but remember this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494 Is it safe enough now? Also, anyone have an update on Ladybird? Looks like its dev is still going strong, but I haven’t been watching it carefully.

pimeys 1y ago
17 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44765292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44765292
akshat2602 1y ago
The devs did address the backdoor and privacy issues.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ProfessorZoom 1y ago

everytime i go all in a browser, including when i went all in on zen, eventually i go back to regular chrome. every single time

ur-whale 1y ago
> eventually i go back to regular chrome I guess being given a daily colonoscopy by your browser and the results being reported to GOOG isn't high on your list of concerns then.

account-5 1y ago

Have they fixed the backdoor yet? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494

akshat2602 1y ago
If you go through the issues and the discussions, linked in the article that you yourself linked, you'll see that the devs addressed the backdoor and privacy issues.
- account-5 1y ago
  Ok.
nusl 1y ago
As far as I know, yes.

grigio 1y ago

Brave is faster and the features are similar

NikxDa 1y ago
Brave however is riddled with Crypto and AI crap. It doesn't have any useable support for multiple profiles, too: last time I tried it, it would end up showing various errors on every startup and you couldn't have two profiles in the same window.
- ochronus 1y ago
  What does "riddled with Crypto and AI crap" mean here?
  - nusl 1y ago
    If you download Brave and run it you'll see; many pop-ups and random things in the UI you don't want
    - ochronus 1y ago
      I've been running it for years; I see none of what you mention. I turned off a couple of settings (literally took <5 minutes) and I don't see anything crypto or AI related anymore.
      - mantra2 1y ago
        Same. I’ve been using it exclusively on macOS and iOS for a few years now. When you first open it they do show you all those features but as ochronous said you can completely disable them. If they forced crypto and AI on me I’d be out in a flash.
        ochronus 1y ago
        To me, any other browser's initial "hello" screens are similarly "annoying", including Firefox. It's just a setup hurdle one needs to get over.

grim_io 1y ago

What does it even mean to be all-in on a browser? You can switch any time, multiple times per day even.

stronglikedan 1y ago
Right? I use Chrome for personal because it just syncs well with my phone. I use FF for business because it's a bit clunkier than Chrome but still acceptable, and more importantly, completely separate. I use Edge to run one off webapps here and there, where I don't want the window previews to appear and clutter things up when hovering over one of the other browsers in the task bar.
NoGravitas 1y ago
And the nice thing for me with Zen is that switching between Zen and Firefox is even lower cost, because they sync with each other.
mantra2 1y ago
Because “Lately I use Zen” isn’t as catchy of a title.
eviks 1y ago
No, not if you are "all in" and spend enough time customizing it or getting used to the UI/features uniquely available to a specific browser. You won't be able to switch multiple times a day without noticing a lot of friction as you common workflows break down
- at-fates-hands 1y ago
  In my role I have to do a lot of testing on different browsers so the least amount of friction is little to no customization, the only plugins are the ones I need for testing and nothing else. When I was a developer, I fell into the trap of trying to customize everything, only to have to keep doing it once a new browser or extension came out. I gave up trying to get something exactly the way I wanted it. I use as close to stock as possible in order to avoid the kind of friction you're talking about.

Semaphor 1y ago

I tried Zen for a while (1-2 months). It certainly has some cool features. But in the end, I returned to Vanilla FF and installed Sideberry [0] with custom userChrome.css [1]. It gets me 99% of what I used with Zen (tree tabs, workspaces), but without annoyances/anti-features (inconvenient url bar for editing, frequent UI changes, cute animations that ignore prefer-reduced-motion, performance, security worries etc.). I’m relatively happy with my setup [2] now, what I miss most from Zen would be the 2-level pinned tabs (pinned per workspace, and globally pinned), and the design of globals pins (instead of a line on the side as in [2], it’s a grid at the top for Zen), but not even close to enough that I’d want to return. [0]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sidebery/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sidebery/ [1]: https://github.com/mbnuqw/sidebery/wiki/Firefox-Styles-Snippets-(via-userChrome.css) https://github.com/mbnuqw/sidebery/wiki/Firefox-Styles-Snipp... [2]: https://i.imgur.com/v9a6VRw.png https://i.imgur.com/v9a6VRw.png

vinnymac 1y ago
I did almost the same thing about 9 months ago. I am rooting for Zen despite currently maining with Firefox. I have to have all the browsers and nightlies installed anyways, so I might as well personalize it to work best for my needs. I imagine not everyone is like us, and something like Zen being zero config is a big deal.
flashblaze 1y ago
A big hurdle for me is the lack of Widevine which for some reason not a lot of people mention: https://docs.zen-browser.app/faq#why-cant-zen-browser-play-drm-protected-content https://docs.zen-browser.app/faq#why-cant-zen-browser-play-d...
- ravetcofx 1y ago
  strange Spotify works for me in Zen out out of the box on the Flatpak version.
  - flashblaze 1y ago

NikxDa 1y ago

Zen still has some annoying shortcomings, like missing Widevine DRM or the dev tools opening up annoyingly slow. The potential is there, but it wasn't quite daily drivable as a developer for me just yet as of a few weeks ago. Once it gets there, I too will finally leave Arc behind. Until then, while it is on life support, Arc actually works. I really wish The Browser Company would just own up to their fuck up and revive it.

elashri 1y ago
Regarding the DRM support, they are trying to get Widevine license from Google [1] but for some reason Google approval process is taking too long. [1] https://docs.zen-browser.app/faq#why-cant-zen-browser-play-drm-protected-content https://docs.zen-browser.app/faq#why-cant-zen-browser-play-d...

xnx 1y ago

We're past the point were small aesthetic changes like this make a meaningful difference in browsers. In 2025 a browser that really acts as a user agent needs to do much more at the content level: ad blocking, content rewriting (clickbait headlines, etc.), content aggregation and summarization, deceptive content idenification, automatic reader-mode, etc.

XorNot 1y ago
Man that really hits me for a killer app for LLMs: headline identification and summarization. Rewrite "could X be Y?" headlines with the answer.
- thewebguyd 1y ago
  Safari's reader mode summaries aren't too bad for this. They are usually short, under a paragraph. It'd be nice if you could "3D touch" the headline to just load that summary in the little preview window instead of having to click, and then open in reader mode though. I can see that being a really nice built-in browser feature, to load a summary on hover over a link.
  - rswerve 1y ago
    Arc has this, though I used it less than I thought I would, mostly because the summaries were too short to be helpful.
acheron 1y ago
The extent that we need so many lines of defense versus web developers is astonishing. Congrats to everyone working to make the Internet worse; you’ve had a very successful couple of decades.
eviks 1y ago
In 2025 we still largely fail at the very basics of good UI in many apps, browsers included, so we're nowhere near the point where these extra features you describe are the only way to make a meaningful difference

aclatuts 1y ago

I still really like the Arc browser. Other browsers are still missing some of the small UI/UX things Arc has.

bravetraveler 1y ago

Never go all-in

joey486DX4 1y ago

I liked Zen, but there was a time when every new update introduced a new behavior. Weird stuff like how the URL bar is handled for new tabs, or how videos are played. It was unexpected and annoying. I don't know if they are over this phase. I went back to Firefox.

willi59549879 1y ago
that annoyed me too. you set the browser up how you want it and in the next update it works in a different way.

gbrindisi 1y ago

I can't use Google Meet on firefox/zen, I tried every setting combination I could find but the video call quality is still not comparable to chromium based browsers, so at work I reluctantly switched to Vivaldi. If you figure this out please let me know!

mariusor 1y ago
I think it's widely speculated that Google sabotages how their own products work in Firefox. I don't know if there is actual evidence to support that though.
aspenmayer 1y ago
Have you tried switching your User Agent (with or without a helper extension) to Chrome/Chromium/Edge to see if that makes a difference? I have heard that some G sites that are clunky or broken seem to work better under Firefox when it identifies itself as Chrome.
wlonkly 1y ago
I'm in a Zoom shop now, but when I was in a Meet/Hangouts shop, I used Chrome for that, and Firefox for everything else. If you're on a Mac, the utility Choosy can send links to appropriate browsers based on patterns.

cycomanic 1y ago

It's weird how people always complain about lack of easy profile switching in Firefox. If one tells them that what they are really looking for is containers, they dismiss containers, but then proceed to complain that profiles don't have the same features. If you want sync across browser instances, manage them with one Firefox account... You really want containers not profiles.

codepoet80 1y ago
Agreed. Containers are the reason I use Firefox -- they are a much better fit than profiles. But I've not been able to successfully communicate that to Chrome users. Its like their mental model is stuck, and they can't grasp the differences.
- reddit_clone 1y ago
  Yep. Containers are great. But haven't seen anyone else using it near me though. One feature I was missing from Chrome was Tab Groups. But recently (I don't know when it started) the feature showed up in FireFox too :-)
- celsoazevedo 1y ago
  Containers are a better fit for... what containers do. They're the wrong tool when you want to separate, let's say, personal and work bookmarks, extensions, etc. For example, I have a main profile where I have personal bookmarks and different extensions (and more aggressive adblocking). I also have a work profile with a different theme, different bookmarks, extensions, etc. And I use containers in both. Containers are nice, but they're not profiles. We have to understand that not everyone can or wants to have one profile with everything in it.
- prinny_ 1y ago
  As a Firefox user I could also say the same for other Firefox users. Every time profiles are mentioned and people mention containers it feels like they don’t get the use case. I want a dev profile with dev book marks and a daily profile with my non dev bookmarks. And I would also like dev plugins on one profile and different themes between these profiles. I believe this is something containers can’t offer.

tapoxi 1y ago

I've been using Zen for a few months after I lost faith in Arc/The Browser Company. I like the workflow of swiping between profiles, vertical tabs and pinned favorites. I haven't been able to find a browser that works just like that. I'd prefer to use Chromium over Firefox though, that's the only downside. I keep running into weird Firefox specific issues. Passkeys didn't work properly (and still won't support TouchID), pages don't render correctly, etc.

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jhaile 1y ago

To be fair I haven't tried Zen, but Arc still works well. I don't particularly need any new features - so as long as they continue to keep up with timely security patches and Chromium updates I'll probably keep using it. Also - as a developer I would prefer using a Chromium-based browser since it's the most common one used. I tried Dia a few weeks back and was disappointed in its sidebar and profile features.

schnable 1y ago
Agree, unfortunately Chromium is one of the killer features of Arc.

pokechamp 1y ago

I used zen. it used all my cpu. I stopped using zen.

ewf 1y ago
if the fan starts - force quit

tummler 1y ago

Oh, to be new to Zen again. That lovely honeymoon phase. Give it a few weeks/months. Bugs, random UI changes, odd development priorities. I wanted to love it, I really did.

thewebguyd 1y ago
I use this userchrome.css to replicate some of the zen UI in vanilla firefox: https://github.com/akkva/gwfox https://github.com/akkva/gwfox UI isn't the only thing zen does, but anything else I just adjusted myself + some custom uBlock Origin filters and I'm good to go.
NoGravitas 1y ago
I've been using it for maybe 6 months now, and I'm still enjoying it. The only things that I couldn't get by properly configuring an up-to-date Firefox (with userChrome.css) are compact mode, workspaces, and peek, though, so it wouldn't take too many annoyances to send me back to Firefox.
amanzi 1y ago
Yep, I switched back to Firefox after loving Zen for a while. The latest UI change that tipped me over the edge was to remove the ability to use Firefox themes.
cassianoleal 1y ago
Your experience matches my early days with it. That said, it's been pretty solid in the last few months.

x3n0ph3n3 1y ago

Is there support for uBlock on Zen? I refuse to use a browser without it.

NoGravitas 1y ago
It supports all the extensions desktop Firefox supports.

Alifatisk 1y ago

Also switched to Zen on all my devices (except ios sadly). Been a blast

eviks 1y ago

> way; it was superpowered with keyboard shortcuts that just made sense No, that's under-powered. Powered is when you can define multiple simple custom shortcuts (as far as I understand, at least Zen allows 1 shortcut change for some commands (unlike 0 in the dumb FF), so halfway there, not sure about Arc). Super powered is when you can add key sequences and keys without modifiers depending on context in addition to a simple shortcuts. Uberpowered would be the equivalent of QMK within the app (tap vs hold, home row mods left vs right alt, all 4 modifiers, etc etc), but when you can have conditions based on app contexts and dynamic user defined conditions (eg, in the simplest way, have vim-like modal editing in text fields with word jumps and single key navigation outside). While uberpowered apps are unicorns, among relatively known browsers think only Vivaldi has has power > Firefox remains the gold standard for user-first browsing. What's gold about poor customization (no keybind, but also changing UI is cumbersome) and bad defaults? > why isn’t it Firefox? Oh, why indeed! Something about lack of incentives to innovate of even listen to users much when you're a big company financed by "ulterior" sources

steve_adams_86 1y ago
> Powered is when you can define multiple simple custom shortcuts You nailed it. It drives me insane that FF and Zen are unable to be customized. A huge appeal for me with Arc was that suddenly I could use my keyboard more using shortcuts that made sense. Arc does allow customization as well: https://resources.arc.net/hc/en-us/articles/20595231349911-Keyboard-Shortcuts https://resources.arc.net/hc/en-us/articles/20595231349911-K... I'm off of Arc due to the lack of maintenance and decreasing efficiency; it kills my laptop's battery remarkably quickly and it's kind of crazy to bother with it anymore. edit: I'm an idiot. Zen has a settings pane for keyboard shortcuts. This is great: https://docs.zen-browser.app/user-manual/shortcuts https://docs.zen-browser.app/user-manual/shortcuts I think I tested Zen in early 2024 and it looks like shortcuts were revamped in mid-2024. Time flies.

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runjake 1y ago

> Mozilla should take this team, absorb it, and use it to help navigate the future of their flagship browser for end users. No. Mozilla's leadership would ruin it, too. Firefox by itself is great technology. That's not the problem. The Mozilla leadership, incentives, and org structure is the problem.

sam1r 1y ago

>>> added AI to a browser framework that isn’t a million miles away from stock Chrome. Wow, very well put. I love how mobile browsers are not even in the conversation.

dira3 1y ago

So what is their monetization model? What can one expect from this product or company in the future? Can't find answers on their About page: https://zen-browser.app/about/ https://zen-browser.app/about/

runjake 1y ago
I think you posted the answer to your own question. They don't appear to be a company. They are an open source project. They request donations. > We are simply a group of developers and designers who care about your experience on the web.

ewf 1y ago

feels like people keep wanting more and more from the browser. I just want it to stay out the way. Lightweight, good dev tools, good privacy settings.

ur-whale 1y ago
> feels like people keep wanting more and more from the browser. The browser is the new OS, so no wonder there.
- BoredPositron 1y ago
  The browser is the new paper you still need a desk.
  - ewf 1y ago
    Ten years ago we installed ad blockers. Now we want AI to surveil us.

osener 1y ago

I tried Zen for a few months. I like the UX, even more than Arc in many places. But it is just too slow for me on an M1 Max. I've switched back to Orion. Even though I miss some goodies such as Firefox containers, I just need the browser to get out of the way, not use too much power and not warm up my laptop with runaway processes. Plus, tree-style tabs are great.

wuhhh 1y ago

I've been trying All The Browsers lately and Arc is definitely still my favourite; I actually had no idea that development had stopped on it, that's a shame. Zen looks good, but they are off the charts on this graph! https://sizeof.cat/post/web-browser-telemetry-2025-edition/ https://sizeof.cat/post/web-browser-telemetry-2025-edition/ What is going on there? Their Privacy Policy says no telemetry, but then they have a section on those connections made at startup which apparently are "necessary for the proper functioning of the browser and are not used for tracking or profiling purposes"... they then go on to say "can be disabled through the browser flags (about:config)" Does that mean the browser will no longer function correctly? Among the connections made (according to the report) are x.com, google.com (plus a bunch of other google domains). reddit.com and notion.com, discordapp.com, cloudflareinsights.com

wahnfrieden 1y ago
It's just obvious bullshit
zamadatix 1y ago
> Among the connections made (according to the report) are x.com, google.com (plus a bunch of other google domains). reddit.com and notion.com, discordapp.com, cloudflareinsights.com Reddit, X, Discord, and Notion are all part of the default sites in the sidebar. Perhaps it's loading them to grab the favicons and such, leading to all of their calls to CDNs, analytics, etc being called.
- wuhhh 1y ago
  Thanks for calling that out, I had not got as far as installing the browser so had no idea they were default favourites / shortcuts. Seems like that telemetry report has given a couple of browser vendors the kick they needed to reduce initial connections. I wonder how much of an effect this stuff has on how snappy it feels to actually open these applications. In my dock I currently have FF and FF nightly, Chrome, Ungoogled Chrome, Arc and Safari. Ungoogled loads in the blink of an eye, the rest are all shades of sluggish. I guess this is the price of having a few extensions and “quality of life” features :shrug:

perryizgr8 1y ago

Is there a browser apart from Firefox that let's you switch tabs in most recently used order? I just cannot live without this.

alxndr13 1y ago
you can do using vimium :)

alxndr13 1y ago

using zen since about 7 months for all of my daily work + on my personal computer. the issues the comments describe here, never had those. it "just" works for me. donated to the project, i hope they go a long way.

gethly 1y ago

I've used Zen for a while but it had bugs with addressbar and there was no interest in fixing it, so i moved on. Competition is always good.

steve_adams_86 1y ago

> And ironically, The Browser Company now charges $20/month, the same amount I would gladly have paid for Arc. As crazy as this probably sounds, I would have been content to pay for Arc to continue being developed as well. It had real energy behind it, some great ideas, and it was improving a tool I use daily. I'm using Zen as well, now.

jimmydoe 1y ago

Nothing against Zen, but if you prefer stay Firefox but crave for some UI sugar, try https://github.com/greeeen-dev/natsumi-browser https://github.com/greeeen-dev/natsumi-browser

gxonatano 1y ago

As a student of Zen Buddhism, I'm always a little bothered to see yet another thing called "Zen" that has virtually nothing to do with Zen, or Buddhism. The authors seem to think that "Zen" is a synonym for "calm," even though calm abiding is only one small aspect of Zen. If you read any of the classic Zen literature, like the Gateless Gate or the Blue Cliff Record, you'd come away with the impression that Zen is very active, vital, and vigorous. But with a name like Zen, I at least expected the browser to be one of those tabless ones that encourage you to focus your attention on the present task, by enforcing one web page at a time. Or a text-based one, like w3m, that removes graphics to allow you to focus on the words. While the Zen browser interface is a little cleaner, with fewer buttons and things, that doesn't necessarily translate to "calmer." Calm is what you bring to the browsing experience, not what you take away from it.