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Recent HN comment on "Beyond Meat headed to Chapter 11 bankruptcy", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44935141#44935280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=

Recent HN comment on "Beyond Meat headed to Chapter 11 bankruptcy", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44935141#44935280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44935141#44935280 About 10 years ago I became more aware that reducing my consumption of meat was good for the world. This was good for Beyond Meat’s prospects. About 5 years ago I became more aware that reducing my consumption of ultra processed food was good for me. This was very bad for Beyond Meat’s prospects.

fakedang 1y ago
[flagged]
esperent 1y ago
Lab grown meat isn't necessarily ultra processed (in the sense that it should be automatically assumed to be unhealthy, of course there's a lot of processing involved). At least, I don't know enough about it to jump to that conclusion. Beyond Meat and Impossible burgers definitely are ultra processed though.
- mvdtnz 1y ago
  According to Wikipedia, > An ultra-processed food is a grouping of processed food characterized by relatively involved methods of production. There is no simple definition of UPF, but they are generally understood to be an industrial creation derived from natural food or synthesized from other organic compounds. This disgusting salmon-flavoured soy bean paste certainly qualifies.
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 1y ago
    As I said elsewhere: It is important to not that nuts and dark chocolate usually fit the ultra processed (or sometimes just processed) food definition. This poses real problems in studies because they are roughly a net benefit health wise so authors have the choice between excluding them from the study (which misleadingly worsens claims about processed food being bad) or keeping them in (misleadingly softening how bad they are).
- jfengel 1y ago
  Reading the commonly-cited definition of "ultra processed": Industrially manufactured food products made up of several ingredients (formulations) including sugar, oils, fats and salt (generally in combination and in higher amounts than in processed foods) and food substances of no or rare culinary use (such as high-fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, modified starches and protein isolates). Group 1 [un- or minimally processed] foods are absent or represent a small proportion of the ingredients in the formulation. Processes enabling the manufacture of ultra-processed foods include industrial techniques such as extrusion, moulding and pre-frying; application of additives including those whose function is to make the final product palatable or hyperpalatable such as flavours, colourants, non-sugar sweeteners and emulsifiers; and sophisticated packaging, usually with synthetic materials. Processes and ingredients here are designed to create highly profitable (low-cost ingredients, long shelf-life, emphatic branding), convenient (ready-to-(h)eat or to drink), tasteful alternatives to all other Nova food groups and to freshly prepared dishes and meals. I'd say that it doesn't really fit any of the usual categories. It's definitely produced by technical means using uncommon ingredients. But it's not hyper-palatable -- that is, it's not designed to make you eat large amounts of it. So I guess it depends on how well it ends up fitting into the diet. If we end up eating it the way we eat salmon -- a few times a week, in reasonable quantities, with a similar nutritional profile -- then it's not a concern. If it ends up going into a product that you eat by the bagful, then it could be a concern for the same reason other ultra-processed foods are.
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 1y ago
    It is important to not that nuts and dark chocolate usually fit the ultra processed (or sometimes just processed) food definition. This poses real problems in studies because they are roughly a net benefit health wise so authors have the choice between excluding them from the study (which misleadingly worsens claims about processed food being bad) or keeping them in (misleadingly softening how bad they are).
    - mollerhoj 1y ago
      nuts are ultra processed?
david_draco 1y ago
The words "good" and "very bad" indicate that the world is less important to that person than themselves. I'd be okay with a bit of personal harm if it helps against climate change. Ultra-processed food does not have an agreed-upon definition, and is the new "junk food" with the pretense of being more scientific. Is bread and pizza ultra-processed food? Studies do not agree on their definitions, sometimes including ingredient lists, sometimes not, sometimes it is required that the product is made in small shops with love and not in large factories. The mechanism of how ultra-processed food are supposed to cause harm remains undefined.
- parasti 1y ago
  I read "cancer" in between the lines of that comment. So the characterization of (potentially) that backdrop as "a bit of personal harm" feels wildly overassuming.
- mjevans 1y ago
  I was extremely dismayed when that supermarket simulator game that got popular on Twitch called 'pizza' something along the line of 'frozen dessert pie'... At least the way it tends to get made in the US, a sugary pastry that's stuffed full of sugar, carbs, fats and cheese? Ok yeah, my favorite foods are _all_ terrible for me and I can't eat them anymore. This makes me very sad.
  - pacifika 1y ago
    Why not make pizza at home?
    - dzhiurgis 1y ago
      Pizza at home is my pet peeve. Lots of work working the dough, lots of waiting, super messy. Needs expensive oven and tons of electricity. All of this work to get one of the cheapest meal available. Now compare to a steak - add salt, 5 minutes on pan, rest. Better than $50 steak at most restaurants.
glenstein 1y ago
Characterizing meat alternatives as "ultra processed" has been a propaganda coup for the meat industry, allowing for an equivocation between categorically different nutritional profiles of products like Twinkies and Pringles on the one hand, and meat alternative products which have absolutely nothing to do with refined starches, sugars, or trans fats on the other and which in fact have better cardiovascular outcomes, cancer outcomes and environmental impacts than the meats they are replacing. They're both ultra processed in the same way that a jellyfish and a California Redwood are both carbon based life forms.
- dyauspitr 1y ago
  Meat alternatives are stupid. Soy bean chemically mangled until it tastes like meat is an abomination. Either have real lab grown meat or change your perspective and eat like the South and East asians do, making vegetarian meals incredibly delicious.
  - Orochikaku 1y ago
    Could you elaborate on why you feel as though it’s an abomination? I don’t quite see the hang ups about it.
  - whycome 1y ago
    Chemically mangled? I’m all for all tastes and textures. Cheese production may be the definition of “chemically mangled milk” but I’m all for it.
- ajross 1y ago
  This seems likely true, but at the same time the actual science has been (1) pretty conclusive on the "processed foods are bad" top-line result yet (2) really, really bad at isolating exactly why that top-line result holds. Yes, high glycemic index foods and trans fats are bad, and high sodium is bad for at least some at-risk people. But they aren't bad enough to explain the processing result. So waving away Beyond/Impossible as safe because they don't have the stuff you list is potentially premature. Frankly I think the bigger reason these don't seem to be working out is that they aren't having the actual impact desired. The price isn't coming down. And if the price remains at higher-than-meat levels the ecological impact (which is what I personally care more about) is probably not where it needs to be either. I mean, let's be blunt: all this dithering about health effects and environmental externalities isn't actually going to change anything. Make a burger for the price of a bean dip, however, and the market will beat your door down even if they claim not to care about the hippy nonsense.
smohare 1y ago
[dead]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
boston_clone 1y ago
Educate yourself. This is nothing more than Richard Berman's propaganda to allow more bullshit in this country. Big tobacco, drunk driving, union busting, questioning global warming, the list goes on and this man is likely responsible for some of the most detrimental misinformation campaigns in modern history. https://sentientmedia.org/big-meat-rebrand-disinformation/ https://sentientmedia.org/big-meat-rebrand-disinformation/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Research_and_Education#Activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Rese... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berman_(musician)#Hiatus_from_music:_2009–2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berman_(musician)#Hiatus...

fakedang 1y ago

[flagged]

esperent 1y ago

Lab grown meat isn't necessarily ultra processed (in the sense that it should be automatically assumed to be unhealthy, of course there's a lot of processing involved). At least, I don't know enough about it to jump to that conclusion. Beyond Meat and Impossible burgers definitely are ultra processed though.

mvdtnz 1y ago
According to Wikipedia, > An ultra-processed food is a grouping of processed food characterized by relatively involved methods of production. There is no simple definition of UPF, but they are generally understood to be an industrial creation derived from natural food or synthesized from other organic compounds. This disgusting salmon-flavoured soy bean paste certainly qualifies.
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 1y ago
  As I said elsewhere: It is important to not that nuts and dark chocolate usually fit the ultra processed (or sometimes just processed) food definition. This poses real problems in studies because they are roughly a net benefit health wise so authors have the choice between excluding them from the study (which misleadingly worsens claims about processed food being bad) or keeping them in (misleadingly softening how bad they are).
jfengel 1y ago
Reading the commonly-cited definition of "ultra processed": Industrially manufactured food products made up of several ingredients (formulations) including sugar, oils, fats and salt (generally in combination and in higher amounts than in processed foods) and food substances of no or rare culinary use (such as high-fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, modified starches and protein isolates). Group 1 [un- or minimally processed] foods are absent or represent a small proportion of the ingredients in the formulation. Processes enabling the manufacture of ultra-processed foods include industrial techniques such as extrusion, moulding and pre-frying; application of additives including those whose function is to make the final product palatable or hyperpalatable such as flavours, colourants, non-sugar sweeteners and emulsifiers; and sophisticated packaging, usually with synthetic materials. Processes and ingredients here are designed to create highly profitable (low-cost ingredients, long shelf-life, emphatic branding), convenient (ready-to-(h)eat or to drink), tasteful alternatives to all other Nova food groups and to freshly prepared dishes and meals. I'd say that it doesn't really fit any of the usual categories. It's definitely produced by technical means using uncommon ingredients. But it's not hyper-palatable -- that is, it's not designed to make you eat large amounts of it. So I guess it depends on how well it ends up fitting into the diet. If we end up eating it the way we eat salmon -- a few times a week, in reasonable quantities, with a similar nutritional profile -- then it's not a concern. If it ends up going into a product that you eat by the bagful, then it could be a concern for the same reason other ultra-processed foods are.
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 1y ago
  It is important to not that nuts and dark chocolate usually fit the ultra processed (or sometimes just processed) food definition. This poses real problems in studies because they are roughly a net benefit health wise so authors have the choice between excluding them from the study (which misleadingly worsens claims about processed food being bad) or keeping them in (misleadingly softening how bad they are).
  - mollerhoj 1y ago
    nuts are ultra processed?

david_draco 1y ago

The words "good" and "very bad" indicate that the world is less important to that person than themselves. I'd be okay with a bit of personal harm if it helps against climate change. Ultra-processed food does not have an agreed-upon definition, and is the new "junk food" with the pretense of being more scientific. Is bread and pizza ultra-processed food? Studies do not agree on their definitions, sometimes including ingredient lists, sometimes not, sometimes it is required that the product is made in small shops with love and not in large factories. The mechanism of how ultra-processed food are supposed to cause harm remains undefined.

parasti 1y ago
I read "cancer" in between the lines of that comment. So the characterization of (potentially) that backdrop as "a bit of personal harm" feels wildly overassuming.
mjevans 1y ago
I was extremely dismayed when that supermarket simulator game that got popular on Twitch called 'pizza' something along the line of 'frozen dessert pie'... At least the way it tends to get made in the US, a sugary pastry that's stuffed full of sugar, carbs, fats and cheese? Ok yeah, my favorite foods are _all_ terrible for me and I can't eat them anymore. This makes me very sad.
- pacifika 1y ago
  Why not make pizza at home?
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    Pizza at home is my pet peeve. Lots of work working the dough, lots of waiting, super messy. Needs expensive oven and tons of electricity. All of this work to get one of the cheapest meal available. Now compare to a steak - add salt, 5 minutes on pan, rest. Better than $50 steak at most restaurants.

glenstein 1y ago

Characterizing meat alternatives as "ultra processed" has been a propaganda coup for the meat industry, allowing for an equivocation between categorically different nutritional profiles of products like Twinkies and Pringles on the one hand, and meat alternative products which have absolutely nothing to do with refined starches, sugars, or trans fats on the other and which in fact have better cardiovascular outcomes, cancer outcomes and environmental impacts than the meats they are replacing. They're both ultra processed in the same way that a jellyfish and a California Redwood are both carbon based life forms.

dyauspitr 1y ago
Meat alternatives are stupid. Soy bean chemically mangled until it tastes like meat is an abomination. Either have real lab grown meat or change your perspective and eat like the South and East asians do, making vegetarian meals incredibly delicious.
- Orochikaku 1y ago
  Could you elaborate on why you feel as though it’s an abomination? I don’t quite see the hang ups about it.
- whycome 1y ago
  Chemically mangled? I’m all for all tastes and textures. Cheese production may be the definition of “chemically mangled milk” but I’m all for it.
ajross 1y ago
This seems likely true, but at the same time the actual science has been (1) pretty conclusive on the "processed foods are bad" top-line result yet (2) really, really bad at isolating exactly why that top-line result holds. Yes, high glycemic index foods and trans fats are bad, and high sodium is bad for at least some at-risk people. But they aren't bad enough to explain the processing result. So waving away Beyond/Impossible as safe because they don't have the stuff you list is potentially premature. Frankly I think the bigger reason these don't seem to be working out is that they aren't having the actual impact desired. The price isn't coming down. And if the price remains at higher-than-meat levels the ecological impact (which is what I personally care more about) is probably not where it needs to be either. I mean, let's be blunt: all this dithering about health effects and environmental externalities isn't actually going to change anything. Make a burger for the price of a bean dip, however, and the market will beat your door down even if they claim not to care about the hippy nonsense.

smohare 1y ago

[dead]

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

boston_clone 1y ago

Educate yourself. This is nothing more than Richard Berman's propaganda to allow more bullshit in this country. Big tobacco, drunk driving, union busting, questioning global warming, the list goes on and this man is likely responsible for some of the most detrimental misinformation campaigns in modern history. https://sentientmedia.org/big-meat-rebrand-disinformation/ https://sentientmedia.org/big-meat-rebrand-disinformation/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Research_and_Education#Activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Rese... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berman_(musician)#Hiatus_from_music:_2009–2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berman_(musician)#Hiatus...