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Wow, I did not expect anyone to be offering a SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND mile warranty on their batteries. That's some serious confidence. I didn't see anything about

Wow, I did not expect anyone to be offering a SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND mile warranty on their batteries. That's some serious confidence. I didn't see anything about it transferring, though. That would be smart on their end - the resale value for electric sports cars at least, is about 50% in the first year, then it levels off hard after that. This would encourage buying new, but not aftermarket. I'll have to look into this. Still, while this removes a primary concern of mine, there's still one major hurdle that cannot be bypassed as far as I can tell (yet): If you have shared parking, there's essentially no way to charge your car. Maybe if it's an outdoor parking lot you can rely on solar power somewhat, assuming you're in a good situation for that? Still, my point is that my parking space isn't actually mine, so I can't modify anything in the garage. Assuming superconductors aren't figured out any time soon, this appears to be an impossible solve, which cuts their consumer market significantly. Also, not exactly the same thing, but they could remove those warranties and instead get some nice replaceable battery cells in there. Let me turn a thing to unlock it, pull out that one cell, and replace it. But maybe I'm a little more wrench-y than their customers want to be?

nicoburns 1y ago
> If you have shared parking, there's essentially no way to charge your car. The neighbourhood I used to live in London (where almost nobody has off-street parking) installed chargers into lamp posts. This BBC article has more details and photos https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67518869 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67518869
stetrain 1y ago
Home charging in shared parking scenarios is difficult. Municipalities can add curbside chargers and in some places this is fairly common. In a private condo or apartment scenario you'd need the owner or association to agree to install them. A second option is more slow chargers installed places your car spends a lot of time parked, like offices or transit stations if you park and ride. A third option is using a fast charger somewhere you go once or twice a week. Like grocery stores, gyms, etc. Costco for example is adding fast chargers to their stores, which should be fast enough for a full charge by the time you actually get in and out of Costco. Replacing cells in a pack can be difficult. You want all the cells in the pack to have roughly the same capacity and voltage curve, so that you can connect them all together and charge them at the same time. GM says that their Ultium batteries are segmented into modules, which each module having its own Battery Management System, and that it supports mixing and matching modules of different degradation and even cell chemistry. But anything that adds complexity to the pack beyond being cells packed in as densely as feasible is going to add costs and reduce maximum energy storage. I think the long term answer here is that there will eventually be a used and remanufactured battery pack market for popular models, just like you can get a used or remanufactured engine today.
- nomel 1y ago
  > A second option is more slow chargers installed places your car spends a lot of time parked, like offices or transit stations if you park and ride. I don't think this will ever happen. It's the worst case in most every sense. You're talking thousands of chargers, for most parking structures, to solve a problem that's mostly about current battery tech/infrastructure. When battery tech is ready for general use, this won't be needed.
  - stetrain 1y ago
    Battery tech is ready for general use. Over 20% of cars being sold in California are EVs now, and over 90% in Norway. Slow chargers are pretty low-tech devices, just a 208V-277V circuit with a device that handles switching, ground fault check, and potentially payment. These are going to be cheaper and easier to install and maintain than fast chargers, and I think adding them to workplaces is going to be easier than covering individual apartments. That certainly won't cover all needs, which is why I listed other alternatives as well. The answer will be a blend of these solutions where each makes sense.
    - nomel 1y ago
      > Battery tech is ready for general use. > Over 20% of cars being sold in California are EVs now These are not compatible, if you're talking BEV. Regardless, you've provided data showing that it's not acceptable for the overwhelming majority of buyers, which matches market research [1]. And, out of that group, 30% want to switch back to gas [2]. Cost, and the massive depreciation is a factor related to current batter tech. And, what % of commercial vehicles sales are BEV (which is included in general use)? > and over 90% in Norway. In California, 2023: 25% sales. 2024: 25.3% sales. There trend has slowed, maybe related to our ridiculous electric prices (fuel is cheaper, in many cases). It's very difficult to compare small European countries to a something in the US. For some anecdotal evidence (which seems somewhat sufficient for the definition of "general"), I own an EV, and I know it's not ready for general use, because I will not be selling my gas car. In fact, I'm replacing it next month with another gas car. Most people I know have an EV (like 70%), and the majority have a second gas car that they say they will not sell. The majority of those that only have an EV say their next purchase will be a hybrid, all matching the trends shown in market research. I'm crossing my fingers for another salt battery breakthrough, which are making their way into BEV [3]. [1] https://www.mckinsey.com/features/mckinsey-center-for-future-mobility/our-insights/new-twists-in-the-electric-vehicle-transition-a-consumer-perspective https://www.mckinsey.com/features/mckinsey-center-for-future... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/25/ev-owners-want-to-buy-gas-cars-again.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/25/ev-owners-want-to-buy-gas-ca... [3] https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinese-battery-maker-catl-launches-second-generation-fast-charging-battery-2025-04-21/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinese-battery-maker-cat...
neogodless 1y ago
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stanleydrew 1y ago
> Still, my point is that my parking space isn't actually mine, so I can't modify anything in the garage. Presumably over time shared parking areas will get upgraded with charging infrastructure to keep attracting tenants.
- _carbyau_ 1y ago
  The housing and rental markets currently favour owners/landlords significantly and it's not looking like slowing down. I have zero hope that "charging infrastructure" will be installed to "attract tenants". Here in Australia landlords seem to struggle with basic things like insulation or a split system aircon.
PaulKeeble 1y ago
There is also just the situations where cars are parked on the street and the cabling has to get across the public pavement to charge the car. Even though those people can deploy a charger they can't be blocking the pavement. There is a real concern here where the incentives for the individual to pay to deploy charging capabilities in their car parking bay or front garden can't actually do so because of ownership. It needs solving via legislation, a basic default that people can pay to deploy these systems themselves. Charging on public infrastructure ought to get there in time but the really big benefit of electric cars comes when it charges at home on cheap electricity and the only time you worry about charging it at all is when you do a long trip and you have to charge it at the half way point for 30 minutes.
- jdlshore 1y ago
  I live in Portland OR where electric cars are fairly popular. People just run an extension cable out to the street and put a cable cover over it on the sidewalk.
  - somerandomqaguy 1y ago
    Where I live in Canada, that's illegal. Tripping hazard on the ground, I don't know the exact reason why overhead is also illegal (though I can make a few guesses).
    - jdlshore 1y ago
      I don’t know about the law, but the cable covers are the big industrial ones they use at concert venues etc. So no significant tripping hazard.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - somerandomqaguy 1y ago
        I know. Those cable covers are also illegal, something city law enforcement and spokespersons confirmed. Don't ask me why a cover is illegal, it seems strange to me. Maybe it's because of the danger of snow clearing equipment chewing it and the cable to pieces, but I'm just spit balling here. And it's not like it's a new issue, I've heard public complaints about lack of solutions to this brought city council for years now. Haven't heard anything about the law being changed at this point.
connicpu 1y ago
At my last apartment before I moved into a home where I did have the ability to install a charger, they had 4 EV chargering spots in the parking garage. I believe residents just had to pay the normal residential electricity rate to use them, they were standard commercial level 2 chargers like the kind you see in public parking lots. All this to say, if the demand is there then shared parking structures will install them. I live in a city with a fairly high percentage of EVs, but it will continue to spread.
- hedora 1y ago
  We get away with level 1 chargers, and live far from the city. Residential lots could easily get away with one level one charger per spot. (The wattage is < 25% that of one level 2 charger, so you can put in 4x as many with the same backend connection to the grid.) For city commuters, this would probably be more than good enough.
  - connicpu 1y ago
    Yep absolutely, I used a level 1 charger at home for a couple years and it could easily recharge my daily work commute in about 5-8 hours (depending on season). Even now the only upgrade I did was move to a 240V16A charger because I wanted it to be a little quicker after long trips, but most of the time I limit the charge rate to 8A to preserve battery health.
  - WorldMaker 1y ago
    Yeah, Level 1 charging is way too easily overlooked in the US. A lot of US parking lots could add simple Level 1 outlets to most lamp posts and do a lot, easily, for EV charging. (Most traditional halogen lamps were nearly Level 2 circuits, prior to recent switches to LEDs. If the LED transition had been timed a little different there might be way more L2 chargers "easily" installed in parking lots.) A bit of an aside: I think part of the public perception problem is calling Level 1 "chargers" and not just "outlets". At so many points in our discourse, especially in the US, we've let car manufacturers sell us this idea of "gas-pump-like capital-C Charger" as something bulky and "hard/expensive to install", but really most EVs just need more wall outlets, classic, boring electrical outlets. Sure, the US can blame Edison that we don't have Level 2 as a default outlet and our cheapest/easiest outlets are Level 1, yet still we need to stop underestimating L1. The other thing beyond "don't discount L1 as a reliable way to charge" (slow and steady charges the race car, eh) is "don't discount the power of destination chargers". Everywhere you park is a possible place for a charger. If you can't get one easily at home, maybe your employer can build one. Your grocery store and your church or bar or pickle ball court or other third place can build one. (Especially Level 1. Outdoor outlets have always been a thing, moving them a little closer to parking spaces shouldn't always be a big deal. Boring old electrical outlets are "everywhere" already, we just aren't always yet in the mode of thinking about them, their ubiquity, and how they can charge our cars, while we eat or shop or work or hang out or play or sleep.)
gwbas1c 1y ago
There are some cars with panels, but they can only get about 10ish miles a day with good sunshine. Stationary panels work much, much better. > Assuming superconductors aren't figured out any time soon, this appears to be an impossible solve, which cuts their consumer market significantly. What does that have to do with EVs? The inflection point for adoption is solid state batteries, and there are some experimental factories under construction. (Solid state batteries don't loose charge when parked and can charge about as fast as filling a tank of gas.) > Also, not exactly the same thing, but they could remove those warranties and instead get some nice replaceable battery cells in there. Battery exchanges are impractical because the battery is part of the frame.
- coderenegade 1y ago
  I don't think the bottleneck for charging is in the batteries, it's in electricity as an energy vector. By its very nature, someone is either instantaneously dispatching it from somewhere, or it's already being generated and curtailed. I just don't see that being cheaper than even biofuels in the long run, because time arbitrage matters. Making fuel with overcapacity that is worth zero (or less!) probably scales better than trying to store it all in batteries, because holes and containers will always be cheaper and easier to expand.
- hulitu 1y ago
  > Solid state batteries don't loose charge when parked citation needed. /s Never heard of batteries without self-discharge.
  - gwbas1c 1y ago
    [dead]
floxy 1y ago
> Assuming superconductors aren't figured out any time soon, this appears to be an impossible solve, which cuts their consumer market significantly. I don't think superconductors solve anything in the EV charging space, and certainly wouldn't make L2/L1 charging easier to install for shared parking / street-side parking. An L2 charger uses something like a electric clothes dryer circuit, with 240V at 40A. Or somewhere in the 6-10 kW range, to recharge you overnight.
- gorbypark 1y ago
  Room temperature super conductors would be huge for the EV charging space. One big thing holding back EV transport trucks is charging capacity. The infrastructure to support charging a fleet of EV trucks at 1MW+ each is insane with current tech. Even supporting a bank of 350KW chargers is pretty nuts like you see in some highway rest stops (or Tesla Supercharger stations). Locations are limited by the proximity to high voltage transmission lines right now (ie: it's really expensive to push that much current for any significant distance). If we had cheap and ubiquitous super conductors that could be run like regular ole medium voltage electrical cables....game changer.
  - hulitu 1y ago
    One also needs good connectors.
matthewdgreen 1y ago
Installation of AC Level 2 charging in garages is a technical problem but not exactly a problem on the level of “superconductors”. You need to install wiring and upgrade your service connection, and also install chargers that can share a circuit (which is commercially available.) It’s just a problem of figuring out who pays for it.
wagwang 1y ago
Certain ev sports cars are bought so that you get the privilege of buying nicer cars e.g. the taycan
- gambiting 1y ago
  That's true of any car, not just EVs. The word in certain circles is that people are only buying the Ferrari Purosangue in hopes of getting on the waiting list for their more desirable cers. And the Taycan is a great car in its own right, just the price is stupid. The Audi E-Tron is the same car just packaged differently and can be had for sometimes half the price.

nicoburns 1y ago

> If you have shared parking, there's essentially no way to charge your car. The neighbourhood I used to live in London (where almost nobody has off-street parking) installed chargers into lamp posts. This BBC article has more details and photos https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67518869 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67518869

stetrain 1y ago

Home charging in shared parking scenarios is difficult. Municipalities can add curbside chargers and in some places this is fairly common. In a private condo or apartment scenario you'd need the owner or association to agree to install them. A second option is more slow chargers installed places your car spends a lot of time parked, like offices or transit stations if you park and ride. A third option is using a fast charger somewhere you go once or twice a week. Like grocery stores, gyms, etc. Costco for example is adding fast chargers to their stores, which should be fast enough for a full charge by the time you actually get in and out of Costco. Replacing cells in a pack can be difficult. You want all the cells in the pack to have roughly the same capacity and voltage curve, so that you can connect them all together and charge them at the same time. GM says that their Ultium batteries are segmented into modules, which each module having its own Battery Management System, and that it supports mixing and matching modules of different degradation and even cell chemistry. But anything that adds complexity to the pack beyond being cells packed in as densely as feasible is going to add costs and reduce maximum energy storage. I think the long term answer here is that there will eventually be a used and remanufactured battery pack market for popular models, just like you can get a used or remanufactured engine today.

nomel 1y ago
> A second option is more slow chargers installed places your car spends a lot of time parked, like offices or transit stations if you park and ride. I don't think this will ever happen. It's the worst case in most every sense. You're talking thousands of chargers, for most parking structures, to solve a problem that's mostly about current battery tech/infrastructure. When battery tech is ready for general use, this won't be needed.
- stetrain 1y ago
  Battery tech is ready for general use. Over 20% of cars being sold in California are EVs now, and over 90% in Norway. Slow chargers are pretty low-tech devices, just a 208V-277V circuit with a device that handles switching, ground fault check, and potentially payment. These are going to be cheaper and easier to install and maintain than fast chargers, and I think adding them to workplaces is going to be easier than covering individual apartments. That certainly won't cover all needs, which is why I listed other alternatives as well. The answer will be a blend of these solutions where each makes sense.
  - nomel 1y ago
    > Battery tech is ready for general use. > Over 20% of cars being sold in California are EVs now These are not compatible, if you're talking BEV. Regardless, you've provided data showing that it's not acceptable for the overwhelming majority of buyers, which matches market research [1]. And, out of that group, 30% want to switch back to gas [2]. Cost, and the massive depreciation is a factor related to current batter tech. And, what % of commercial vehicles sales are BEV (which is included in general use)? > and over 90% in Norway. In California, 2023: 25% sales. 2024: 25.3% sales. There trend has slowed, maybe related to our ridiculous electric prices (fuel is cheaper, in many cases). It's very difficult to compare small European countries to a something in the US. For some anecdotal evidence (which seems somewhat sufficient for the definition of "general"), I own an EV, and I know it's not ready for general use, because I will not be selling my gas car. In fact, I'm replacing it next month with another gas car. Most people I know have an EV (like 70%), and the majority have a second gas car that they say they will not sell. The majority of those that only have an EV say their next purchase will be a hybrid, all matching the trends shown in market research. I'm crossing my fingers for another salt battery breakthrough, which are making their way into BEV [3]. [1] https://www.mckinsey.com/features/mckinsey-center-for-future-mobility/our-insights/new-twists-in-the-electric-vehicle-transition-a-consumer-perspective https://www.mckinsey.com/features/mckinsey-center-for-future... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/25/ev-owners-want-to-buy-gas-cars-again.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/25/ev-owners-want-to-buy-gas-ca... [3] https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinese-battery-maker-catl-launches-second-generation-fast-charging-battery-2025-04-21/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinese-battery-maker-cat...

neogodless 1y ago

[dead]

stanleydrew 1y ago

> Still, my point is that my parking space isn't actually mine, so I can't modify anything in the garage. Presumably over time shared parking areas will get upgraded with charging infrastructure to keep attracting tenants.

_carbyau_ 1y ago
The housing and rental markets currently favour owners/landlords significantly and it's not looking like slowing down. I have zero hope that "charging infrastructure" will be installed to "attract tenants". Here in Australia landlords seem to struggle with basic things like insulation or a split system aircon.

PaulKeeble 1y ago

There is also just the situations where cars are parked on the street and the cabling has to get across the public pavement to charge the car. Even though those people can deploy a charger they can't be blocking the pavement. There is a real concern here where the incentives for the individual to pay to deploy charging capabilities in their car parking bay or front garden can't actually do so because of ownership. It needs solving via legislation, a basic default that people can pay to deploy these systems themselves. Charging on public infrastructure ought to get there in time but the really big benefit of electric cars comes when it charges at home on cheap electricity and the only time you worry about charging it at all is when you do a long trip and you have to charge it at the half way point for 30 minutes.

jdlshore 1y ago
I live in Portland OR where electric cars are fairly popular. People just run an extension cable out to the street and put a cable cover over it on the sidewalk.
- somerandomqaguy 1y ago
  Where I live in Canada, that's illegal. Tripping hazard on the ground, I don't know the exact reason why overhead is also illegal (though I can make a few guesses).
  - jdlshore 1y ago
    I don’t know about the law, but the cable covers are the big industrial ones they use at concert venues etc. So no significant tripping hazard.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - somerandomqaguy 1y ago
      I know. Those cable covers are also illegal, something city law enforcement and spokespersons confirmed. Don't ask me why a cover is illegal, it seems strange to me. Maybe it's because of the danger of snow clearing equipment chewing it and the cable to pieces, but I'm just spit balling here. And it's not like it's a new issue, I've heard public complaints about lack of solutions to this brought city council for years now. Haven't heard anything about the law being changed at this point.

connicpu 1y ago

At my last apartment before I moved into a home where I did have the ability to install a charger, they had 4 EV chargering spots in the parking garage. I believe residents just had to pay the normal residential electricity rate to use them, they were standard commercial level 2 chargers like the kind you see in public parking lots. All this to say, if the demand is there then shared parking structures will install them. I live in a city with a fairly high percentage of EVs, but it will continue to spread.

hedora 1y ago
We get away with level 1 chargers, and live far from the city. Residential lots could easily get away with one level one charger per spot. (The wattage is < 25% that of one level 2 charger, so you can put in 4x as many with the same backend connection to the grid.) For city commuters, this would probably be more than good enough.
- connicpu 1y ago
  Yep absolutely, I used a level 1 charger at home for a couple years and it could easily recharge my daily work commute in about 5-8 hours (depending on season). Even now the only upgrade I did was move to a 240V16A charger because I wanted it to be a little quicker after long trips, but most of the time I limit the charge rate to 8A to preserve battery health.
- WorldMaker 1y ago
  Yeah, Level 1 charging is way too easily overlooked in the US. A lot of US parking lots could add simple Level 1 outlets to most lamp posts and do a lot, easily, for EV charging. (Most traditional halogen lamps were nearly Level 2 circuits, prior to recent switches to LEDs. If the LED transition had been timed a little different there might be way more L2 chargers "easily" installed in parking lots.) A bit of an aside: I think part of the public perception problem is calling Level 1 "chargers" and not just "outlets". At so many points in our discourse, especially in the US, we've let car manufacturers sell us this idea of "gas-pump-like capital-C Charger" as something bulky and "hard/expensive to install", but really most EVs just need more wall outlets, classic, boring electrical outlets. Sure, the US can blame Edison that we don't have Level 2 as a default outlet and our cheapest/easiest outlets are Level 1, yet still we need to stop underestimating L1. The other thing beyond "don't discount L1 as a reliable way to charge" (slow and steady charges the race car, eh) is "don't discount the power of destination chargers". Everywhere you park is a possible place for a charger. If you can't get one easily at home, maybe your employer can build one. Your grocery store and your church or bar or pickle ball court or other third place can build one. (Especially Level 1. Outdoor outlets have always been a thing, moving them a little closer to parking spaces shouldn't always be a big deal. Boring old electrical outlets are "everywhere" already, we just aren't always yet in the mode of thinking about them, their ubiquity, and how they can charge our cars, while we eat or shop or work or hang out or play or sleep.)

gwbas1c 1y ago

There are some cars with panels, but they can only get about 10ish miles a day with good sunshine. Stationary panels work much, much better. > Assuming superconductors aren't figured out any time soon, this appears to be an impossible solve, which cuts their consumer market significantly. What does that have to do with EVs? The inflection point for adoption is solid state batteries, and there are some experimental factories under construction. (Solid state batteries don't loose charge when parked and can charge about as fast as filling a tank of gas.) > Also, not exactly the same thing, but they could remove those warranties and instead get some nice replaceable battery cells in there. Battery exchanges are impractical because the battery is part of the frame.

coderenegade 1y ago
I don't think the bottleneck for charging is in the batteries, it's in electricity as an energy vector. By its very nature, someone is either instantaneously dispatching it from somewhere, or it's already being generated and curtailed. I just don't see that being cheaper than even biofuels in the long run, because time arbitrage matters. Making fuel with overcapacity that is worth zero (or less!) probably scales better than trying to store it all in batteries, because holes and containers will always be cheaper and easier to expand.
hulitu 1y ago
> Solid state batteries don't loose charge when parked citation needed. /s Never heard of batteries without self-discharge.
- gwbas1c 1y ago
  [dead]

floxy 1y ago

> Assuming superconductors aren't figured out any time soon, this appears to be an impossible solve, which cuts their consumer market significantly. I don't think superconductors solve anything in the EV charging space, and certainly wouldn't make L2/L1 charging easier to install for shared parking / street-side parking. An L2 charger uses something like a electric clothes dryer circuit, with 240V at 40A. Or somewhere in the 6-10 kW range, to recharge you overnight.

gorbypark 1y ago
Room temperature super conductors would be huge for the EV charging space. One big thing holding back EV transport trucks is charging capacity. The infrastructure to support charging a fleet of EV trucks at 1MW+ each is insane with current tech. Even supporting a bank of 350KW chargers is pretty nuts like you see in some highway rest stops (or Tesla Supercharger stations). Locations are limited by the proximity to high voltage transmission lines right now (ie: it's really expensive to push that much current for any significant distance). If we had cheap and ubiquitous super conductors that could be run like regular ole medium voltage electrical cables....game changer.
- hulitu 1y ago
  One also needs good connectors.

matthewdgreen 1y ago

Installation of AC Level 2 charging in garages is a technical problem but not exactly a problem on the level of “superconductors”. You need to install wiring and upgrade your service connection, and also install chargers that can share a circuit (which is commercially available.) It’s just a problem of figuring out who pays for it.

wagwang 1y ago

Certain ev sports cars are bought so that you get the privilege of buying nicer cars e.g. the taycan

gambiting 1y ago
That's true of any car, not just EVs. The word in certain circles is that people are only buying the Ferrari Purosangue in hopes of getting on the waiting list for their more desirable cers. And the Taycan is a great car in its own right, just the price is stupid. The Audi E-Tron is the same car just packaged differently and can be had for sometimes half the price.