5 ms·

I'm not a lawyer so I can't comment on the charge itself but as a lay citizen, after reviewing Street View, the parents are definitely at fault. That area is n

I'm not a lawyer so I can't comment on the charge itself but as a lay citizen, after reviewing Street View, the parents are definitely at fault. That area is not walkable and I wouldn't trust a 7 year old to go there alone, period. And then to allow them to jaywalk at the spot where the kid was struck is downright unconscionable. And the median looks like it's easy to lose your balance over (I suspect that's what really happened). I'm not generally against the notion of letting a 7 year old walk alone in public but this isn't some cornerstore at the end of a 25mph residential street. This is basically a highway. Although the speed limit on that stretch is 45mph, I'm pretty certain drivers would be hitting 60 there since the road leading into it looks like a 60 road.

refulgentis 1y ago
Saw enough comments like this with unbelievable details that I went and figured out how to see it. Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/aEjjXcmDDaFKtivR9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/aEjjXcmDDaFKtivR9 We are rounding a surface street with a 45 limit to a highway at 60 and then pretend its obviously unsafe. This is obviously wrong, given the crosswalks. Also, we have 0 idea if the child was allowed to jaywalk. We know they were on the phone with the older one at at least some point. That's all. It's a tragedy, but, hard to get my head to the idea that its manslaughter that both parents are culpable for. As noted in coverage, it's an odd gap compared to how unsecured guns are treated.
- amluto 1y ago
  > This is obviously wrong, given the crosswalks. If you’ve marked the right spot, I count one single intersection within credible walking distance that has crosswalks at all, and it only has crosswalks in two (!) of the four places where they ought to be. I guess that, if you happen to be at the SW corner of Lyon and W Hudson, then you’re just stuck there? There’s even a “SCHOOL” marking without a crosswalk a short distance to the south.
  - refulgentis 1y ago
    Lots packed in here. I don't know how to interlocute with it without being straightforward, but I'm nervous, I think you'll be upset and people will think there's more disputable here than there is and I'm just being mean. I apologize in advance. > one single intersection What other roads did you find that intersect that are relevant? > within credible walking distance Let's put some ground beneath the possible skew I may have injected by just assuming it was a credible walking distance: 2.5 minutes at 2.5 mph. 557 feet from leading edge of crosswalk to trailing edge of supermarket, via Google Maps. Taking the 2.5mph low range for human walking speed, that's t = 557 ft / (2.5 × 5280 ft/hr) ≈ 0.04219 hr = 151.8 s = 2.5 min. > I guess that, if you happen to be at the SW corner of Lyon and W Hudson, then you’re just stuck there? I guess that too! Does it obscure or shed light to talk about an unrelated path when discussing whether parents should be charged for manslaughter? I don't like suburban traffic infrastructure either, just, think we might have gotten a bit into that in a way that makes me want to make sure we're also signalling we're not talking about the parents anymore, or at least, if we are, I want to make sure it's clear what facts we're using when talking about it, at least for the audience. > There’s even a “SCHOOL” marking without a crosswalk a short distance to the south. What's a SCHOOL marking? Are you discussing the school speed limit sign? Do SCHOOL markings or speed limit signs denote an intersection immediately adjacent to the sign / SCHOOL marking? If not, why does this one need a crosswalk? AFAICT the limit sign is on the same side of the street as the school, with a sidewalk.
    - amluto 1y ago
      You said that, “given the crosswalks”, W Hudson isn’t obviously unsafe. I tried to figure out what crosswalks, plural, you were talking about. There is one crosswalk at the E side of the intersection with Lyon. There is not a crosswalk on the W side, nor is there there one before W Hudson ends a ways to the west. If you follow Lyon to the south, you will find the word “SCHOOL” in big letters in the road, with no associated crosswalk. If you go east a couple thousand feet, there’s another crosswalk. Sure, a couple thousand feet is a credible distance to walk if you’re going for a walk, but it’s rather far to detour as a pedestrian to get across a street. Okay, maybe the kids in question should have used the crosswalk at Lyon. If your mark is right, I buy that. But this road looks awful. Suppose you’re at Southwest Jr. High and you want to go to La Bodega Food Mart or Subway. How do you get there while using crosswalks to cross major streets? The obvious locations that seem like they should have crosswalks don’t have them. > What's a SCHOOL marking? Check out satellite view and go south a little way on Lyon. “SCHOOL” is painted on the street. Notably, no crosswalk is painted on the street.
- refulgentis 1y ago
  -1. What a great website its been here lately. Lets just make things up altogether, and damn those worryworts arguing with us: as long as it feels good, we are happy.
wonder_er 1y ago
'jaywalking' is a term that supports the concept of vehicular homicide. A normal ethical system would say the obligation to not kill anyone with a vehicle is on the operator of the vehicle. The environment should also support safe handoffs between priorities. The parents are not at fault - they were born into this shitty country. It is the road engineer, the city engineer, full stop. Consider this book: [Killed by a Traffic Engineer: Shattering the Delusion that Science Underlies our Transportation System](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/201978334-killed-by-a-traffic-engineer https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/201978334-killed-by-a-tr...) Jaywalking is a supremacists, propagandistic term, I would propose it be excised from your vocabulary: https://josh.works/jaywalking https://josh.works/jaywalking It was used mostly to imprison formerly enslaved people for walking around. In some american cities in the 50s and 60s, thousands of people PER YEAR were ARRESTED for jaywalking!!!! It's how deputized slave patrols (police) can easily initiate harassment against the enslaved/formerly-enslaved class.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  There's a lot of nuance to marked crossing vs not. You can definitely make an argument that waiting for a break in straight, undistracted, traffic and then jumping to the median is safer than trying to cross at an intersection where there's other things going on. If you do it right, it can be much safer. On the other hand, if you do it wrong it can be way worse. Considering that we're talking about children who have no experience behind the wheel and no ability to accurately predict what the drivers will do I think "use a crosswalk and wait for traffic to let you cross" is likely the best advice. All that said, your race baiting language policing game is stupid, malicious and actively detracts from the discussion.
  - wonder_er 1y ago
    if a group of people (deputized slave patrols) is harassing and kidnapping another group of people (anyone perceived to be non-white), and I am talking about it, is it _me_ who is stupid, malicious, and detracts from the discussion, or is it the slave patrollers and their supporters who are stupid and malicious? I think it's the latter.
tantalor 1y ago
> I wouldn't trust a 7 year old to go there alone The 7 year old was not alone, he was with his older brother. > They had sent Legend out to the grocery store with his 10-year-old brother when he stepped out in front of traffic. https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/nc-lawmaker-bring-attention-proposed-bill-after-parents-charged-gastonia-childs-death/V7IHMNTSBZGEVJ5WY6WNRJQ5CE/ https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/nc-lawmaker-bring-attentio...
alistairSH 1y ago
But there's a sidewalk there. Without any thought, we should be able to assume a sidewalk is fit for purpose. The fact that we have a sidewalk that's "obviously" not fit to purpose is a massive failure on the part of the local transit authority/DOT.
- roncesvalles 1y ago
  But you see, if the 7 year old runs or falls into the 25mph residential street (as kids are wont to do), a car driving towards him could stop on time. On a busy 45mph stroad, there's no chance.

refulgentis 1y ago

Saw enough comments like this with unbelievable details that I went and figured out how to see it. Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/aEjjXcmDDaFKtivR9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/aEjjXcmDDaFKtivR9 We are rounding a surface street with a 45 limit to a highway at 60 and then pretend its obviously unsafe. This is obviously wrong, given the crosswalks. Also, we have 0 idea if the child was allowed to jaywalk. We know they were on the phone with the older one at at least some point. That's all. It's a tragedy, but, hard to get my head to the idea that its manslaughter that both parents are culpable for. As noted in coverage, it's an odd gap compared to how unsecured guns are treated.

amluto 1y ago
> This is obviously wrong, given the crosswalks. If you’ve marked the right spot, I count one single intersection within credible walking distance that has crosswalks at all, and it only has crosswalks in two (!) of the four places where they ought to be. I guess that, if you happen to be at the SW corner of Lyon and W Hudson, then you’re just stuck there? There’s even a “SCHOOL” marking without a crosswalk a short distance to the south.
- refulgentis 1y ago
  Lots packed in here. I don't know how to interlocute with it without being straightforward, but I'm nervous, I think you'll be upset and people will think there's more disputable here than there is and I'm just being mean. I apologize in advance. > one single intersection What other roads did you find that intersect that are relevant? > within credible walking distance Let's put some ground beneath the possible skew I may have injected by just assuming it was a credible walking distance: 2.5 minutes at 2.5 mph. 557 feet from leading edge of crosswalk to trailing edge of supermarket, via Google Maps. Taking the 2.5mph low range for human walking speed, that's t = 557 ft / (2.5 × 5280 ft/hr) ≈ 0.04219 hr = 151.8 s = 2.5 min. > I guess that, if you happen to be at the SW corner of Lyon and W Hudson, then you’re just stuck there? I guess that too! Does it obscure or shed light to talk about an unrelated path when discussing whether parents should be charged for manslaughter? I don't like suburban traffic infrastructure either, just, think we might have gotten a bit into that in a way that makes me want to make sure we're also signalling we're not talking about the parents anymore, or at least, if we are, I want to make sure it's clear what facts we're using when talking about it, at least for the audience. > There’s even a “SCHOOL” marking without a crosswalk a short distance to the south. What's a SCHOOL marking? Are you discussing the school speed limit sign? Do SCHOOL markings or speed limit signs denote an intersection immediately adjacent to the sign / SCHOOL marking? If not, why does this one need a crosswalk? AFAICT the limit sign is on the same side of the street as the school, with a sidewalk.
  - amluto 1y ago
    You said that, “given the crosswalks”, W Hudson isn’t obviously unsafe. I tried to figure out what crosswalks, plural, you were talking about. There is one crosswalk at the E side of the intersection with Lyon. There is not a crosswalk on the W side, nor is there there one before W Hudson ends a ways to the west. If you follow Lyon to the south, you will find the word “SCHOOL” in big letters in the road, with no associated crosswalk. If you go east a couple thousand feet, there’s another crosswalk. Sure, a couple thousand feet is a credible distance to walk if you’re going for a walk, but it’s rather far to detour as a pedestrian to get across a street. Okay, maybe the kids in question should have used the crosswalk at Lyon. If your mark is right, I buy that. But this road looks awful. Suppose you’re at Southwest Jr. High and you want to go to La Bodega Food Mart or Subway. How do you get there while using crosswalks to cross major streets? The obvious locations that seem like they should have crosswalks don’t have them. > What's a SCHOOL marking? Check out satellite view and go south a little way on Lyon. “SCHOOL” is painted on the street. Notably, no crosswalk is painted on the street.
refulgentis 1y ago
-1. What a great website its been here lately. Lets just make things up altogether, and damn those worryworts arguing with us: as long as it feels good, we are happy.

wonder_er 1y ago

'jaywalking' is a term that supports the concept of vehicular homicide. A normal ethical system would say the obligation to not kill anyone with a vehicle is on the operator of the vehicle. The environment should also support safe handoffs between priorities. The parents are not at fault - they were born into this shitty country. It is the road engineer, the city engineer, full stop. Consider this book: [Killed by a Traffic Engineer: Shattering the Delusion that Science Underlies our Transportation System](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/201978334-killed-by-a-traffic-engineer https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/201978334-killed-by-a-tr...) Jaywalking is a supremacists, propagandistic term, I would propose it be excised from your vocabulary: https://josh.works/jaywalking https://josh.works/jaywalking It was used mostly to imprison formerly enslaved people for walking around. In some american cities in the 50s and 60s, thousands of people PER YEAR were ARRESTED for jaywalking!!!! It's how deputized slave patrols (police) can easily initiate harassment against the enslaved/formerly-enslaved class.

potato3732842 1y ago
There's a lot of nuance to marked crossing vs not. You can definitely make an argument that waiting for a break in straight, undistracted, traffic and then jumping to the median is safer than trying to cross at an intersection where there's other things going on. If you do it right, it can be much safer. On the other hand, if you do it wrong it can be way worse. Considering that we're talking about children who have no experience behind the wheel and no ability to accurately predict what the drivers will do I think "use a crosswalk and wait for traffic to let you cross" is likely the best advice. All that said, your race baiting language policing game is stupid, malicious and actively detracts from the discussion.
- wonder_er 1y ago
  if a group of people (deputized slave patrols) is harassing and kidnapping another group of people (anyone perceived to be non-white), and I am talking about it, is it _me_ who is stupid, malicious, and detracts from the discussion, or is it the slave patrollers and their supporters who are stupid and malicious? I think it's the latter.

tantalor 1y ago

> I wouldn't trust a 7 year old to go there alone The 7 year old was not alone, he was with his older brother. > They had sent Legend out to the grocery store with his 10-year-old brother when he stepped out in front of traffic. https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/nc-lawmaker-bring-attention-proposed-bill-after-parents-charged-gastonia-childs-death/V7IHMNTSBZGEVJ5WY6WNRJQ5CE/ https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/nc-lawmaker-bring-attentio...

alistairSH 1y ago

But there's a sidewalk there. Without any thought, we should be able to assume a sidewalk is fit for purpose. The fact that we have a sidewalk that's "obviously" not fit to purpose is a massive failure on the part of the local transit authority/DOT.

roncesvalles 1y ago
But you see, if the 7 year old runs or falls into the 25mph residential street (as kids are wont to do), a car driving towards him could stop on time. On a busy 45mph stroad, there's no chance.