5 ms·

This is one of those things that should be unnecessary if we all had perfect self-control, but the reality is these apps are engineered explicitly to bypass tha

• zem 1y ago
  would also be unnecessary if these apps respected the user rather than trying to addict them
  • coffeecoders 1y ago
    Hard to exercise willpower when the whole system is tuned up against it.
    • switchbak 1y ago
      I've tried hard to keep that garbage out of my sight for years. But dammit YouTube is my one vice. And then they throw those damn shorts on it, I can feel my attention span decreasing. Seems every product just descends into this anti-human shitscape.
  • cantor_S_drug 1y ago
    More time spent implies more ads shown implies proportional conversion. Also now that we have two big companies vying for attention, the competition is fierce to show "relevant ads" first because both receive intent almost simultaneously. I got a youtube short of an office chair company in the feed. I wasn't looking for it explicitly. It was organic feed. Almost immediately I got an ad for that same chair in gmail. Because all of our phones are always listening for intents and keywords. This is recursive ad slop.
• globular-toast 1y ago
  Why is it more surprising that scrolling is addictive versus, say, putting a stick of combusting plant matter in your mouth and inhaling the smoke?
  • coffeecoders 1y ago
    Probably because scrolling feels harmless, while smoking never really did. The surprise is in the mismatch.
    • globular-toast 1y ago
      On the contrary, smoking was not only seen as harmless but actually good for you and encouraged!
      • latexr 1y ago
        Indeed. https://www.healio.com/news/hematology-oncology/20120325/cigarettes-were-once-physician-tested-approved https://www.healio.com/news/hematology-oncology/20120325/cig... https://www.bhclinics.com/single-post/2019/12/11/doctors-prescribed-healthy-cigarette-brands https://www.bhclinics.com/single-post/2019/12/11/doctors-pre...
    • deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  • ghurtado 1y ago
    Because you can describe the chemical interactions of nicotine with the human body to a high degree of accuracy, while the psychology of human attention in the 21st century is a subject that is very far from that cut and dry. That's why we invented a pill that helps with the former, but we might never have one that helps with the latter (although that would be nice)
    • globular-toast 1y ago
      Nicotine is not very addictive. Cigarettes is about the physical addiction.
• madamelic 1y ago
  It's also not some "oopsie". It's almost certainly not news but these sites want these 'one more' behaviors. Years ago, I designed a minimalist YouTube player that removed video suggestions and autoplays but used their player, didn't evade ads, etc. I got banned by Google because they disallow any alternative site for YouTube, only embeds are allowed. Pretty sure I am still banned on all Google APIs too.
  • ghurtado 1y ago
    > I got banned by Google because they disallow any alternative site for YouTube, only embeds are allowed. I'm sorry that happened to you, but that seems like a perfectly reasonable policy. In fact, I would have assumed that's the case before reading your comment.
    • xp84 1y ago
      If it didn't evade ads though, while it's their right to have such a policy with their site, it's still quite a display of the utter contempt they have for their users. Unless they really believe with a straight face that 24 is a healthy optimum for 'YouTube watch hours per day.' Because that's the only number that would cause their brain-hacking to stop. "You'll consume using our dark-patterned, unhealthy interface which we deeply tuned to maximize addiction and obsession, or you'll GTFO!" -Google.
      • Workaccount2 1y ago
        YouTubes users are content creators and advertisers. The people watching the videos are the product.
  • mieubrisse 1y ago
    In case you want that same functionality now, I use the following three extensions to tame Youtube dark patterns: - https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/df-utube-distraction-free/pdghefcfhalghbefjcplkcmadcjgnnai https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/df-utube-distractio... - https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clickbait-remover-for-you/omoinegiohhgbikclijaniebjpkeopip https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clickbait-remover-f... - https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/blocktube/bbeaicapbccfllodepmimpkgecanonai https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/blocktube/bbeaicapb...
• jajko 1y ago
  A very effective partial solution - there is absolutely 0 reason to have any meta app cancers on phones/tablets. Just let them go, leave them for laptop/desktop and you are more than 50% there. This way they lose a lot of their instant addictivity. Same goes for tiktok and similar other shit forming and then feeding on addictions. Everything becomes much easier afterwards, especially long term. I removed FB apps quite some years ago when they were draining batteries of phones even when not used, a typical bad engineering that facebook seems to never get rid off (their web had always some issues, stuff doesn't work, feed doesn't load, comments fail or get posted 2x, albums don't upload all photos etc. with just ublock origin on firefox on fiber optic). I just don't need even their messenger, any worthy contacts can be migrated to other apps. The exception to all above - whatsapp, simply too much used in Europe and literally everywhere else outside of US. But that's much better engineered product from start.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • TheCapeGreek 1y ago
    If you get addicted to these feeds, you'll just find other ways to them once they're off your phone. I take a hybrid approach - keep uninstalled by default most of the time, engage a browser extension for web to keep me in place, and failing all that use an app like this as well.
    • hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
      I actively log out of them on my main device and use a second device to access them that I like to use substantially less. The device sits next to me every day, and is accessible at any time. It has substantially reduced my usage.
      • degamad 1y ago
        Enabling a second profile on my android phone and putting Facebook in there instead of in the browser on my primary profile led to an ~90% reduction on the time I spend on Facebook. However, I do have to check it from time to time for one of my jobs (to monitor our Page and events, and respond to customers), and the occasions when I switch to the second profile can still hook me for 20 minutes of scrolling...
• micromacrofoot 1y ago
  One thing I think a lot of people need to realize and ponder on more... is that these companies have nearly infinite resources, they have entire teams studying the psychology of how to get you to use their apps more (because they primarily chase engagement to sell your attention to advertisers). Not only do they have well-paid experts working on getting you using their platform more often and for longer, but they also have a scary amount of metadata on hundreds of millions of people... they can pluck a person that behaves just like you out of the ether, compare their engagement trends, and apply the same algorithm to you. The resource imbalance becomes really difficult to comprehend. It's like you're trying to avoid a pickpocket that has successfully pickpocketed millions of people, and the pickpocket has years of your behavior at their fingertips and can cross-reference it with every pickpocketing attempt they've ever attempted... oh, and they designed everything about the city you're walking in to make it easier to pickpocket you.
  • nativeit 1y ago
    100% agreed. I got my undergraduate degree in Media Studies, and one of things I learned was how intentional even the smallest details are in major productions. They spend millions of dollars, and employ full-time specialists for things like wardrobe and makeup, and those are skilled professionals whose job is to convey a narrative through their specific medium (in this case, wardrobe and makeup). The same applies when you get to the elite levels of any kind of endeavor--they have long since consumed all of the proverbial low-lying fruit, and so they pay skilled professionals a ton of money to carve out marginal advantages. No presumption of intentional action is too paranoid or unreasonable when you get to this point. Assume every word, comma, image, sound, etc. has been carefully chosen for maximal impact, conscious or otherwise.
    • micromacrofoot 1y ago
      Case in point: Facebook was once discovered to be keeping track of everything you wrote into the post input... even if you never posted it — they will consume every single piece of data they can
• lm28469 1y ago
  > This is one of those things that should be unnecessary if we all had perfect self-control, It's like food, easier to have self control not to buy candies in the supermarket than to have self control at home when you know you have candies in the pantry. I haven't felt the need to watch a reel since I uninstalled IG, before that I ended up scrolling here and there, not much but enough to regret the lost time at the end of the week
  • SchemaLoad 1y ago
    Youtube is more problematic. I have it installed for music but you have to actively remember to not get sucked in to shorts. Feeling like legally they should be forced to split out shorts from the main app.
    • dijit 1y ago
      I constantly find myself telling youtube that I'm not interested in shorts. However on the App there's no way to do this. The whole situation is so user-hostile that I'm actively seeking to move somewhere else.
    • coffeecoders 1y ago
      There is Youtube music (a separate app) just for that!
      • SchemaLoad 1y ago
        I mostly listen to DJ set recordings and it's basically random luck if the youtube music app has them
• nativeit 1y ago
  It'd be a lot easier if the companies behind these products gave users (paid or otherwise) literally any mechanism to opt-out. It drives me mad that YouTube provides a "not interested" button, but refuses to respect my explicit wishes, even as a YouTube Premium subscriber. It wouldn't even be quite so bad if they just didn't bother to ask, at least then I could imagine that such a mechanism would be too complicated or something, but they bother to ask--and then they comply for the remainder of my session. Just make it permanent, you absolute ghouls.
• mieubrisse 1y ago
  I had an epiphany that faulting myself, and my self-control, is exactly what these sites want you to do. "Oh, it's just your bad self-discipline" No, this is full-on war for control of your mind. And the adversary spends millions to hire teams of the world's best psychologists and engineers to deploy technology that never sleeps with the sole purpose of grabbing and keeping your attention. Once I realized this, I started treating doomscrolling and Youtube rabbit holes not as personal insufficiencies, but as systemic failures in my psychological defense system. I started installing my own tech to keep me safe, and I am much, much happier. Predictably, companies like Google try to disable the defenses (e.g. with Manifest v3, which was a garbage excuse to disable many defensive extensions). And so the war goes.
  • brailsafe 1y ago
    In a very loosely analogous way, this reminds me of how I think about car-centric cities. They've built themselves up to make it very difficult to practically participate in society without one, often going so far in that direction that it's so unpleasant and inefficient you're fairly likely to make a mistake at some point and be fined for something. The city then bleeds money maintaining the infrastructure and needs constant construction, so signs are intentionally obscured or speed limits set extremely low despite the roads being wide, and cops are hidden around the corner ready to ticket you. This creates a cycle of heightening anxiety and stress while driving, and discouraging you from going anywhere, making it feel safer to just be isolated in your far-flung house, and thank god you have endless streaming content at your fingertips to make that even more palatable. Addictive media content, particularly short-form casino-style recommended content sucks time away from you in a way that's deeply meaningless. You have no time for friends or real social stimulation and you sit in bed continuing to scroll because it's easy, and you repeat the cycle until all you're doing is that and being sad and lonely, which makes you want to see people more or have a hobby, but that takes a modicum of effort and you have your phone right there.
    • amatecha 1y ago
      There's a correlation between psychologically-manipulative apps and car-centrism: the endless desire for profit -- hyper-domination by capitalism. If the primary motivating factor behind society's actions were "for the greater good", such things would never have become even remotely acceptable. Instead we allow everything, everywhere, to be driven by the desire for greater wealth (usually on the part of a handful of executives, specifically). The more you question "is this motivated by profit" about anything in society or everyday life that is harmful to you, you'll start to notice that the answer is almost always "yes".
• nurettin 1y ago
  I hate yt shorts with a passion, so that's one way of having "perfect self-control" right there.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• latexr 1y ago
  > This is one of those things that should be unnecessary if we all had perfect self-control Or if the platform owners had a minimum of scruples or empathy for their fellow human beings, instead of being disgusting money-hungry goblins concerned solely with their own personal wealth.
• benreesman 1y ago
  There's no weakness in identifying an adversarial situation and acting accordingly. Your adversary is playing to win. Why should you forfeit the contest?
• magicalhippo 1y ago
  > This is one of those things that should be unnecessary if we all had perfect self-control I'm thankful that I'm weird enough to be actively annoyed by the mere existence of Shorts. No chance of getting addicted. Don't use Instagram either so.