4 ms·

Is Clojure still a thing? I sure would hope so, but I haven't seen much of Clojure activity in HN recently.

by 725686 1y ago

ndr 1y ago
I sense Clojure attracts a bunch of people that prefers building stuff than talking about building stuff. It's bad for marketing, but seems promising for the project longevity. I thought Rich was being a bit pretentious when he compared to violin, but few people ask "are violins still a thing?"
giancarlostoro 1y ago
A lot of the Clojure editors I liked that were made specifically for Clojure seemed to have died down too. It's a shame, they were cool and unique. Between Clojure and Racket, those have always been my two favorite Lisp / Scheme languages. I don't do a lot of Lisp but when I do its either in Clojure (thanks to Lein) or in Racket.
- raspasov 1y ago
  Cursive, Calva, and CIDER are all excellent and very well-supported options. What are you missing specifically?
  - tincholio 1y ago
    Not the parent poster, but I suspect he's thinking of stuff like Lighttable, or Liquid. Editors that were written in Clojure, or specifically for Clojure, and had cool features that were not available elsewhere at the time. (I'm boring myself, and pretty much only ever used Emacs with Cider)
    - giancarlostoro 1y ago
      Correct, there's something I enjoy about editors designed for specific languages in mind, they feel like they're more refined. Like I use the really simple UI that Racket comes with Dr. Racket because it has some unique features, and it just works.
doubleg 1y ago
Not surprised as Clojure is boring tech: slowly evolving with a big focus on stability (ie backwards compatibility). Meanwhile: the core team has been extended the last couple of years. Also this summer NuBank (the company behind Clojure) announced the first 'Clojure Developer Advocate'. Their role will be to "focus on ways to support the existing Clojure community and grow the community through outreach and development."^1 [1]: https://building.nubank.com/clojure-developer-advocate-nubank/ https://building.nubank.com/clojure-developer-advocate-nuban... EDIT: wording.
shaunxcode 1y ago
:yes #{of course it is}
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
aeonik 1y ago
The language itself is still getting updates, a new major release was just dropped a month or two ago. I do find that for about 5 years things seemed to be slowing down. Though I keep seeing it pop up, and new exciting projects seem to pop up from time to time. Just today I saw an article about Dyna3, a relational programming language for AI and ML that was implemented on top of Clojure. I miss the Strange Loop conference. I think a lot of Clojure buzz was generated there. Clojure West and a few others so a decent job, but the quality of the talks at Strange Loop were second to none. Not that it was a Clojure specific conference, but it had that focus on elegance that I don't see very often, and the organizer was a something like the Prince of Clojure, if I recall correctly. I'm still enjoying the language, and all my projects still build and run just fine. The major frustration I have with the platform is 3D graphics. That's a JVM issue overall though.
- whizzter 1y ago
  This is for games? Did you try evaluating Jank that seems to be a LLVM based "native" variant?
  - aeonik 1y ago
    Data visualization and simulation, but games are on the table too. I'm eagerly awaiting Jank to stabilize.
- dapperdrake 1y ago
  They even invited Guy Lewis Steele, Jr. hos talk is on YouTube and was awesome. His meta-notation is explained more expansively in a paper on his Oracle page.
- 725686 1y ago
  I absolutely loved Hickey's talks even when I never used Clojure more than for a few simple examples.
- raspasov 1y ago
  I just saw a small 3D demo running at 120fps+ that some of the newer JVM vector APIs supposedly enable. Link to demo @ timestamp: https://youtu.be/UVsevEdYSwI?t=653 https://youtu.be/UVsevEdYSwI?t=653 My experience with 3D graphics is minimal, but I'm curious to know if these newer developments are significant in any way for 3D work.
chamomeal 1y ago
I’d say clojure is very alive and happy. I’m a clojure newb and have been having a super fun time getting into it. Lots of very neat tools are in active development (babashka is the best thing that’s happened to my developer life in a while!!) The small-medium sized community is actually fantastic for learning. The big names in the community are only a slack away, and everybody is so enthusiastic.
casion 1y ago
There's more clojure users than ever before and the team is active and afaik larger than ever before. Things just mature and hype isn't as cool when you heard it 5 years ago.
- chii 1y ago
  > Things just mature and hype isn't as cool when you heard it 5 years ago. which is why now is exactly the right time to start using clojure - after the hype died, but have active community and users.
xanth 1y ago
I was asking the same question today after investigating XTDB¹ (a Clojure centric bitemporal DB) and went looking for a batteries included WebAssembly framework like Blazor² 1. https://xtdb.com/ https://xtdb.com/ 2. https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blaz...
- didibus 1y ago
  I'm not sure, but maybe you can use Blazor with ClojureCLR. It's a feature complete Clojure for .net
tombert 1y ago
I still use it. They finally fixed my biggest complaint about it a year ago, which is that you couldn't use vanilla Clojure lambdas for the Java functional interface, and so you'd have to reify that interface and it was bulky and ugly. Now it works fine so long as the interfaces actually have the @FunctionalInterface attribute. Not every project uses @FunctionalInterface, but I've been trying to add it to places [1] [2] [3], and now I'm able to use Clojure in a lot more places. [1] https://github.com/LMAX-Exchange/disruptor/pull/492 https://github.com/LMAX-Exchange/disruptor/pull/492 [2] https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/19234 https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/19234 [3] https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/19366 https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/19366
ethersteeds 1y ago
As others have said, Clojure is still a thing. For anyone catching up with Clojure again after some time: check out Babashka! Think bash scripts, written in Clojure. It's delightful. https://babashka.org/ https://babashka.org/
- precompute 1y ago
  Babashka is the best scripting environment out there. You just need that one executable and it runs flawlessly. The bundled libs are also very useful.
chr15m 1y ago
Is Make still a thing? I sure would hope so, but I haven't seen much of Make activity in HN recently.
- 725686 1y ago
  I don't know. Is it? I haven't touched one in 20 years.
  - chr15m 1y ago
    Then you rely on it constantly without realising.
raspasov 1y ago
Very much still a thing. Even on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=1&prefix=false&query=clojure&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=1&prefix=false&qu...
KingMob 1y ago
It is, but the community has been shrinking in recent years. FWIW, Google Trends shows the hype peaking in 2016, but I doubt that reflects usage as much as buzz. Instead, if you look at the annual State of Clojure survey results, which solicits opinions directly from the community, the number of responders peaked in 2020 at ~2500, and is down to ~1500 for the most recent 2024 survey. - 2020 State of Clojure - https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-CDBF7CYT7/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-CDBF7CYT7/ - 2024 State of Clojure - https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-hht04mGydwZ6Nqr7N8vjCA_3D_3D/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-hht04mGydwZ6Nqr7N8vj...
- puredanger 1y ago
  The absolute number of survey respondents is not a good proxy for community size - the survey runs at different times of the year, for different lengths of time, and with different amounts of marketing. The only goal with the survey is to get a representative sample size. We have other sources of data, both public and private, that are better indicators and indicate the community size is likely growing at this time.
  - dustingetz 1y ago
    Hi Alex, if you have data that supports a positive Clojure growth narrative please publish it so that I and other consultants/influencers can share the good news in support of our shared mission. The perception of the decline of Clojure is becoming a board-level conversation at unicorn/ish size companies that are or were all-on on Clojure.
- adityaathalye 1y ago
  A better source: 2024 survey analysis (and results): https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024 https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024 - 2024 Highlights - Trends Over Time - 2024 New Users - Previous Results Now... If we are pointing out isolated facts to make an argument, I would caution that survey popularity (sensitive to timing, duration, outreach etc.) is less telling---and less statistically significant---than isolated facts like this: > Clojure versions > Clojure 1.12.0 was released in September 2024 and the survey showed rapid uptake, with 58% already using it, and 65% developing or deploying with the prior versions 1.11, and a steep drop-off after that. Clojure’s focus on stability and avoiding breaking changes makes upgrades safe and easy. > Trends (use at work, hobby, and study have all up-trended) > https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024#trends https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024#tr... > Because this survey has been running since 2010 (thanks to Chas Emerick originally!), we have lots of great longitudinal data and it’s interesting to compare some of the answers over time. > Looking at the question of how Clojure developers use Clojure, we can see this has generally trended more towards using it at work. However, this year we saw an uptick of people using it for hobbies or in their studies:

Is Clojure still a thing? I sure would hope so, but I haven't seen much of Clojure activity in HN recently.

by 725686 1y ago

Is Clojure still a thing? I sure would hope so, but I haven't seen much of Clojure activity in HN recently.

ndr 1y ago

I sense Clojure attracts a bunch of people that prefers building stuff than talking about building stuff. It's bad for marketing, but seems promising for the project longevity. I thought Rich was being a bit pretentious when he compared to violin, but few people ask "are violins still a thing?"

giancarlostoro 1y ago

A lot of the Clojure editors I liked that were made specifically for Clojure seemed to have died down too. It's a shame, they were cool and unique. Between Clojure and Racket, those have always been my two favorite Lisp / Scheme languages. I don't do a lot of Lisp but when I do its either in Clojure (thanks to Lein) or in Racket.

raspasov 1y ago
Cursive, Calva, and CIDER are all excellent and very well-supported options. What are you missing specifically?
- tincholio 1y ago
  Not the parent poster, but I suspect he's thinking of stuff like Lighttable, or Liquid. Editors that were written in Clojure, or specifically for Clojure, and had cool features that were not available elsewhere at the time. (I'm boring myself, and pretty much only ever used Emacs with Cider)
  - giancarlostoro 1y ago
    Correct, there's something I enjoy about editors designed for specific languages in mind, they feel like they're more refined. Like I use the really simple UI that Racket comes with Dr. Racket because it has some unique features, and it just works.

doubleg 1y ago

Not surprised as Clojure is boring tech: slowly evolving with a big focus on stability (ie backwards compatibility). Meanwhile: the core team has been extended the last couple of years. Also this summer NuBank (the company behind Clojure) announced the first 'Clojure Developer Advocate'. Their role will be to "focus on ways to support the existing Clojure community and grow the community through outreach and development."^1 [1]: https://building.nubank.com/clojure-developer-advocate-nubank/ https://building.nubank.com/clojure-developer-advocate-nuban... EDIT: wording.

shaunxcode 1y ago

:yes #{of course it is}

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

aeonik 1y ago

The language itself is still getting updates, a new major release was just dropped a month or two ago. I do find that for about 5 years things seemed to be slowing down. Though I keep seeing it pop up, and new exciting projects seem to pop up from time to time. Just today I saw an article about Dyna3, a relational programming language for AI and ML that was implemented on top of Clojure. I miss the Strange Loop conference. I think a lot of Clojure buzz was generated there. Clojure West and a few others so a decent job, but the quality of the talks at Strange Loop were second to none. Not that it was a Clojure specific conference, but it had that focus on elegance that I don't see very often, and the organizer was a something like the Prince of Clojure, if I recall correctly. I'm still enjoying the language, and all my projects still build and run just fine. The major frustration I have with the platform is 3D graphics. That's a JVM issue overall though.

whizzter 1y ago
This is for games? Did you try evaluating Jank that seems to be a LLVM based "native" variant?
- aeonik 1y ago
  Data visualization and simulation, but games are on the table too. I'm eagerly awaiting Jank to stabilize.
dapperdrake 1y ago
They even invited Guy Lewis Steele, Jr. hos talk is on YouTube and was awesome. His meta-notation is explained more expansively in a paper on his Oracle page.
725686 1y ago
I absolutely loved Hickey's talks even when I never used Clojure more than for a few simple examples.
raspasov 1y ago
I just saw a small 3D demo running at 120fps+ that some of the newer JVM vector APIs supposedly enable. Link to demo @ timestamp: https://youtu.be/UVsevEdYSwI?t=653 https://youtu.be/UVsevEdYSwI?t=653 My experience with 3D graphics is minimal, but I'm curious to know if these newer developments are significant in any way for 3D work.

chamomeal 1y ago

I’d say clojure is very alive and happy. I’m a clojure newb and have been having a super fun time getting into it. Lots of very neat tools are in active development (babashka is the best thing that’s happened to my developer life in a while!!) The small-medium sized community is actually fantastic for learning. The big names in the community are only a slack away, and everybody is so enthusiastic.

casion 1y ago

There's more clojure users than ever before and the team is active and afaik larger than ever before. Things just mature and hype isn't as cool when you heard it 5 years ago.

chii 1y ago
> Things just mature and hype isn't as cool when you heard it 5 years ago. which is why now is exactly the right time to start using clojure - after the hype died, but have active community and users.

xanth 1y ago

I was asking the same question today after investigating XTDB¹ (a Clojure centric bitemporal DB) and went looking for a batteries included WebAssembly framework like Blazor² 1. https://xtdb.com/ https://xtdb.com/ 2. https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blaz...

didibus 1y ago
I'm not sure, but maybe you can use Blazor with ClojureCLR. It's a feature complete Clojure for .net

tombert 1y ago

I still use it. They finally fixed my biggest complaint about it a year ago, which is that you couldn't use vanilla Clojure lambdas for the Java functional interface, and so you'd have to reify that interface and it was bulky and ugly. Now it works fine so long as the interfaces actually have the @FunctionalInterface attribute. Not every project uses @FunctionalInterface, but I've been trying to add it to places [1] [2] [3], and now I'm able to use Clojure in a lot more places. [1] https://github.com/LMAX-Exchange/disruptor/pull/492 https://github.com/LMAX-Exchange/disruptor/pull/492 [2] https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/19234 https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/19234 [3] https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/19366 https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/19366

ethersteeds 1y ago

As others have said, Clojure is still a thing. For anyone catching up with Clojure again after some time: check out Babashka! Think bash scripts, written in Clojure. It's delightful. https://babashka.org/ https://babashka.org/

precompute 1y ago
Babashka is the best scripting environment out there. You just need that one executable and it runs flawlessly. The bundled libs are also very useful.

chr15m 1y ago

Is Make still a thing? I sure would hope so, but I haven't seen much of Make activity in HN recently.

725686 1y ago
I don't know. Is it? I haven't touched one in 20 years.
- chr15m 1y ago
  Then you rely on it constantly without realising.

raspasov 1y ago

Very much still a thing. Even on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=1&prefix=false&query=clojure&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=1&prefix=false&qu...

KingMob 1y ago

It is, but the community has been shrinking in recent years. FWIW, Google Trends shows the hype peaking in 2016, but I doubt that reflects usage as much as buzz. Instead, if you look at the annual State of Clojure survey results, which solicits opinions directly from the community, the number of responders peaked in 2020 at ~2500, and is down to ~1500 for the most recent 2024 survey. - 2020 State of Clojure - https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-CDBF7CYT7/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-CDBF7CYT7/ - 2024 State of Clojure - https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-hht04mGydwZ6Nqr7N8vjCA_3D_3D/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-hht04mGydwZ6Nqr7N8vj...

puredanger 1y ago
The absolute number of survey respondents is not a good proxy for community size - the survey runs at different times of the year, for different lengths of time, and with different amounts of marketing. The only goal with the survey is to get a representative sample size. We have other sources of data, both public and private, that are better indicators and indicate the community size is likely growing at this time.
- dustingetz 1y ago
  Hi Alex, if you have data that supports a positive Clojure growth narrative please publish it so that I and other consultants/influencers can share the good news in support of our shared mission. The perception of the decline of Clojure is becoming a board-level conversation at unicorn/ish size companies that are or were all-on on Clojure.
adityaathalye 1y ago
A better source: 2024 survey analysis (and results): https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024 https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024 - 2024 Highlights - Trends Over Time - 2024 New Users - Previous Results Now... If we are pointing out isolated facts to make an argument, I would caution that survey popularity (sensitive to timing, duration, outreach etc.) is less telling---and less statistically significant---than isolated facts like this: > Clojure versions > Clojure 1.12.0 was released in September 2024 and the survey showed rapid uptake, with 58% already using it, and 65% developing or deploying with the prior versions 1.11, and a steep drop-off after that. Clojure’s focus on stability and avoiding breaking changes makes upgrades safe and easy. > Trends (use at work, hobby, and study have all up-trended) > https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024#trends https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024#tr... > Because this survey has been running since 2010 (thanks to Chas Emerick originally!), we have lots of great longitudinal data and it’s interesting to compare some of the answers over time. > Looking at the question of how Clojure developers use Clojure, we can see this has generally trended more towards using it at work. However, this year we saw an uptick of people using it for hobbies or in their studies: