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I think I was 47 when I finally paid mine off. My wife and I are doing everything we can to help our boys get out of college debt free. Starting your career at

I think I was 47 when I finally paid mine off. My wife and I are doing everything we can to help our boys get out of college debt free. Starting your career at a net worth of zero is so much better than negative tens of thousands.

SoftTalker 1y ago
[flagged]
- lc9er 1y ago
  This reads like, "It's a banana, Michael, what could it cost, $10?".
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    Would you go finance a $50k car and just think it's OK to not make the payments on it?
    - mrangle 1y ago
      A 50k car almost always drives, and you don't risk someone that doesn't like you telling you that you can't get the title after you've paid.
      - SoftTalker 1y ago
        Fair enough, but going into debt for something that has (or will have) no value is an entirely different question. When I was young and dumb (at least more dumb than I am today) and newly graduated from college, I took a $6,000 personal loan at my credit union to buy a computer workstation, top of the line, with a large monitor, laser printer, the works. This was in the early 1990s. It was stupid, and of course the credit union didn't try to talk me out of it. I convinced myself I would "need" it as I entered my professional career as a software developer. Of course it never meaningfully contributed to my income, it was rapidly obsoleted, and I was stuck with the payments. But I made them.
        mrangle 1y ago
        I hear you, but it's still not analogous. I admit to being less than precise in my prior response, specifically. A degree isn't a car, nor is it a computer. Nor is it something that you buy. You pay for the privilege to earn it. The problem is that, during that earning process, an institution has the power to stop you from proceeding with no representation. The only failsafes in place are there to protect the institution. Specifics as to how this can occur are another deep discussion. The takeaway is that a 50k or 100k USD degree is fraught with inherent risk that, even if unusually realized, merits easier loan terms. Due to the core nature of what a degree is and how it is obtained. The day that they federally neuter the power of colleges to determine student progress outside of the grading system, or better yet they give students an easy way to gain advocacy, is the day that I will more or less agree with you.
        dml2135 1y ago
        That $6,000 would be about $13,000 today. That is a very manageable amount of debt. Many people have student debts that are 10-20x that, or more. Minimum payments of thousands of dollars a month, and no ability to discharge them through bankruptcy. You can take on a few thousand dollars of debt as a young adult, realize you made a mistake, grind to pay it off and chalk it up as a life lesson. We are letting young adults today make mistakes that they will never get an opportunity to learn from, because they will be paying for it their entire life. It is vastly different from your example.
        SoftTalker 1y ago
        Well the upthread example was graduating with "tens of thousands" in debt, which really should be managable for anyone who completes a worthwhile degree. Again, that's a new car, something most people pay for in 4-6 years. The fact that you can get easy loans into six digits to pay worthless schools for worthless degrees is a different problem. "Free money" never leads to wise purchases.
        dml2135 1y ago
        I'm not talking about worthless schools -- I'm talking about the Ivy Leagues. Worthless degrees, yes, but why are we not holding our most prestigious schools responsible for charging outlandish prices for worthless degrees? They are the ones with power misleading young adults who maybe should know better but guess what, they often don't, and that's a mistake but not one that should ruin you financially for the rest of your life. But yes, you are right that this is not the majority of student loan borrowers.
akudha 1y ago
Between student loan and mortgage, I guess most people are destined to be in debt their entire life. And that is for healthier individuals and not including other loans like car loans etc. God (if there is one) help with medical debt. How do we expect young people to navigate this rigged system?
- RickJWagner 1y ago
  The answer lies at Bogleheads.org. It works.
- solveit 1y ago
  There's nothing wrong with being in debt per se, and in particular, (federal) student loans and mortgages are loans rigged in favor of the borrower.
  - beej71 1y ago
    Out of curiosity, how are federal student loans rigged in favor of the borrower? Asking for a friend.
    - erikerikson 1y ago
      They are issued for something [contingently] incredibly valuable that cannot be repossessed. They are also generally issued at a lower rate of interest with little collateral, in part due to the fact that they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy and the resulting lower risk. [edit: added "contingently" above. Some education programs have been found to be scams yet could be paid for with debt. I generally stand by the value of higher education and have found it to be a net benefit in my own life. The value has been strained as costs have shifted and the social contract is rearranged behind the backs of educators at all levels]
      - Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
        The 'value' of the education can vary widely. Both in terms of value meaning the ability to use it as a credential for high-paying jobs, or in terms of the imparted skillset/knowledge that either make you a better person or enable you to achieve things like starting a business/inventing/etc. I mean there is a HUGE spectrum here. And this means that there are many educations paid for with debt that are utterly useless (and therefore valueless) on both of these metrics. In other cases where an investment failed to this extent, you can declare bankruptcy. But not student loans! No no no. Those are forever. Hardly a favorable condition for the borrower.

SoftTalker 1y ago

[flagged]

lc9er 1y ago
This reads like, "It's a banana, Michael, what could it cost, $10?".
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Would you go finance a $50k car and just think it's OK to not make the payments on it?
  - mrangle 1y ago
    A 50k car almost always drives, and you don't risk someone that doesn't like you telling you that you can't get the title after you've paid.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      Fair enough, but going into debt for something that has (or will have) no value is an entirely different question. When I was young and dumb (at least more dumb than I am today) and newly graduated from college, I took a $6,000 personal loan at my credit union to buy a computer workstation, top of the line, with a large monitor, laser printer, the works. This was in the early 1990s. It was stupid, and of course the credit union didn't try to talk me out of it. I convinced myself I would "need" it as I entered my professional career as a software developer. Of course it never meaningfully contributed to my income, it was rapidly obsoleted, and I was stuck with the payments. But I made them.
      - mrangle 1y ago
        I hear you, but it's still not analogous. I admit to being less than precise in my prior response, specifically. A degree isn't a car, nor is it a computer. Nor is it something that you buy. You pay for the privilege to earn it. The problem is that, during that earning process, an institution has the power to stop you from proceeding with no representation. The only failsafes in place are there to protect the institution. Specifics as to how this can occur are another deep discussion. The takeaway is that a 50k or 100k USD degree is fraught with inherent risk that, even if unusually realized, merits easier loan terms. Due to the core nature of what a degree is and how it is obtained. The day that they federally neuter the power of colleges to determine student progress outside of the grading system, or better yet they give students an easy way to gain advocacy, is the day that I will more or less agree with you.
      - dml2135 1y ago
        That $6,000 would be about $13,000 today. That is a very manageable amount of debt. Many people have student debts that are 10-20x that, or more. Minimum payments of thousands of dollars a month, and no ability to discharge them through bankruptcy. You can take on a few thousand dollars of debt as a young adult, realize you made a mistake, grind to pay it off and chalk it up as a life lesson. We are letting young adults today make mistakes that they will never get an opportunity to learn from, because they will be paying for it their entire life. It is vastly different from your example.
        SoftTalker 1y ago
        Well the upthread example was graduating with "tens of thousands" in debt, which really should be managable for anyone who completes a worthwhile degree. Again, that's a new car, something most people pay for in 4-6 years. The fact that you can get easy loans into six digits to pay worthless schools for worthless degrees is a different problem. "Free money" never leads to wise purchases.
        dml2135 1y ago
        I'm not talking about worthless schools -- I'm talking about the Ivy Leagues. Worthless degrees, yes, but why are we not holding our most prestigious schools responsible for charging outlandish prices for worthless degrees? They are the ones with power misleading young adults who maybe should know better but guess what, they often don't, and that's a mistake but not one that should ruin you financially for the rest of your life. But yes, you are right that this is not the majority of student loan borrowers.

akudha 1y ago

Between student loan and mortgage, I guess most people are destined to be in debt their entire life. And that is for healthier individuals and not including other loans like car loans etc. God (if there is one) help with medical debt. How do we expect young people to navigate this rigged system?

RickJWagner 1y ago
The answer lies at Bogleheads.org. It works.
solveit 1y ago
There's nothing wrong with being in debt per se, and in particular, (federal) student loans and mortgages are loans rigged in favor of the borrower.
- beej71 1y ago
  Out of curiosity, how are federal student loans rigged in favor of the borrower? Asking for a friend.
  - erikerikson 1y ago
    They are issued for something [contingently] incredibly valuable that cannot be repossessed. They are also generally issued at a lower rate of interest with little collateral, in part due to the fact that they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy and the resulting lower risk. [edit: added "contingently" above. Some education programs have been found to be scams yet could be paid for with debt. I generally stand by the value of higher education and have found it to be a net benefit in my own life. The value has been strained as costs have shifted and the social contract is rearranged behind the backs of educators at all levels]
    - Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
      The 'value' of the education can vary widely. Both in terms of value meaning the ability to use it as a credential for high-paying jobs, or in terms of the imparted skillset/knowledge that either make you a better person or enable you to achieve things like starting a business/inventing/etc. I mean there is a HUGE spectrum here. And this means that there are many educations paid for with debt that are utterly useless (and therefore valueless) on both of these metrics. In other cases where an investment failed to this extent, you can declare bankruptcy. But not student loans! No no no. Those are forever. Hardly a favorable condition for the borrower.