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BBC Micro, ancestor to ARM
- appstorelottery 1y agoBBC basic on this platform was amazing, inline assembly, SWI & SYS calls made calling firmware & inline assembly programming a breeze. Mapping memory and registers to basic variables was trivial. Such a nice programming experience. I recall a few years ago writing a BBC basic program under Riscos that used the Raspberry Pi's BCM2835 undocumented random number generator - no problems. You can see how simple the source code is here: https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11/topics/15091 https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11/topics/15091
- cperciva 1y agoThe article... well, it doesn't bury the lede, but it does completely omit it outside of the headline. For anyone who doesn't know the context: The BBC Micro was built by Acorn Computers, which proceeded to design the Acorn RISC Machine -- later renamed to Advanced RISC Machine and thence to simply "arm". In many ways, the tuple (BBC Micro, Acorn Computers, arm) is analogous to (IBM PC, Intel, x86).
- zabzonk 1y ago> In many ways, the tuple (BBC Micro, Acorn Computers, arm) is analogous to (IBM PC, Intel, x86) Except the BBC micro didn't use an ARM processor - it used a 6502. Whereas the IBM PC did use the Intel processor.
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- afandian 1y agoDepends how nitpicky you want to be. There was an ARM “BBC Micro”. https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-BBC-Archimedes-A310/ https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-BBC-Archi... And the IBM PC used an 8088. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer
- cperciva 1y agoSure, but modern x86 has very little in common with the 8088.
- lproven 1y ago> modern x86 has very little in common with the 8088. It is directly binary compatible. A Core i7 can boot and run MS-DOS from the 8088. I offer a freebie DOS distro for modern PCs: https://github.com/lproven/usb-dos https://github.com/lproven/usb-dos What more do you want than "executes the same binaries"?
- mojuba 1y agoDepends on how you define "common" but the entire lineage 8080 -> 8086 -> 8088 are backwards compatible and therefore are very much related.
- klelatti 1y ago8080 -> 8086 not compatible although assembly code translation was possible.
- mananaysiempre 1y agoSome parts of the lineage are nevertheless very important. When I wrote a 8086 assembler, I’ve come across the idea of of writing the instruction encodings in octal instead of hexadecimal purely by accident, described as some sort of little-known neat trick hidden from the casual reader of the CPU documentation. It’s only by reading the manual for the Datapoint 2200 much later that I found a confirmation that this was very much intentional and (in the distant past) documented.
- klelatti 1y ago100%! There is clear lineage back to the Datapoint 2200 which is remarkable given that it wasn't even an Intel design and CTC gave away the rights IIRC.
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- jacquesm 1y agoExcept, of course there was the Archimedes. Which was a BBC Micro on steroids. Besides, it did say 'in many ways' so I think that this is really needless nitpicking.
- taylorius 1y agoThe Archimedes was called a "BBC Micro" because it was part of the BBC's home computing initiative, but architecturally, it had nothing to do with the original BBC Micro.
- lproven 1y ago> architecturally, it had nothing to do with the original BBC Micro. This is not true. It had lots to do with it. * The Archimedes used a CPU whose designers (Sophie Wilson and Steve Furber) have specifically said they built it to be conceptually similar to the 6502. Source: I have met both and seen them say this in person. * The Archimedes ran RISC OS which is a rewrite of the BBC MOS. Source: I have interviewed the project leader, Paul Fellows. https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/23/how_risc_os_happened/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/23/how_risc_os_happened/ The Archie came with !6052tube and could run some BBC apps. Source code: http://bbc.nvg.org/rom/Acorn/os/?C=N;O=A http://bbc.nvg.org/rom/Acorn/os/?C=N;O=A
- jacquesm 1y agoHardware architecture not, for very obvious reasons. But if you wrote BBC Basic you'd have felt right at home and this continuity was one of the reasons they sold quite well, lots of people that were using the BBC Micro in ways that it wasn't intended for had run into the limitations of the platform and wanted something similar but bigger and faster. The Archimedes was that - and more. To get maximum performance (still very anemic by today's standards) out of a 6502 based BBC you'd have been programming in assembly and that of course did not port at all to the ARM based machines. As I wrote in another comment I was pretty close to the fire and had very early access to the ARM architecture based beebs courtesy of a friendly contact but I realized soon enough that the future for home computing and SMB business computing did not lie with either Acorn, Atari, Commodore or any of the other contenders. In '88 or so (my memory is a bit hazy about the dates, there was a lot going on in my life back then) I moved to x86 professionally with a side of Atari ST (using the fantastic Mark Williams C compiler + documentation) for more fun stuff and with the advent of the availability of the internet for the masses I ran SGI Irix for a couple of years until I settled on Linux which has been my daily driver for decades now. Hardware architecture used to be a super important factor for me, now the only thing that matters is whether or not I can run Ubuntu and whether the hardware is sufficiently powerful to get me through my working day. The fact that my daily driver is a 12 year old laptop is a nice indication of how far we've come, it is pretty rare that I put together machines where performance really matters. But regardless of all of that I have a fond spot in my heart for the BBC, regardless of processor used, it was the machine that allowed me to finally do some more structured programming and explore other languages without breaking the bank.
- Kim_Bruning 1y agoSort of true, but yet, what does my eye spy on an early Archimedes A310 keyboard? (detail: https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/user/custom/Acorn/32bit/A310/310-Keyboard-detail.jpg https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/user/custom/Acorn/32bit/A310/310... ) (full article for reference: https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-BBC-Archimedes-A310/ https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-BBC-Archi... ) ... and besides, it runs BBC BASIC!
- djmips 1y agoLet's be serious, the BBC micro is awesome but it's no more the ancestor to my phone than an Apple II.
- lproven 1y ago> it's no more the ancestor to my phone than an Apple II. It really is. Both Acorn (BBC Micro designers/manufacturers) and Apple Computer (Apple II ditto) bought in the MOS 6502 chip. When it came to successor models, both tried the 65C816. Acorn made the Communicator: https://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/Communicator.html https://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/Commun... Apple made the Apple IIgs: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object/nmah_553246 https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object/nmah_55324... Both were not delighted with its performance and looked elsewhere. Apple went for the 68000 for its next mass-market model, the Mac. (I am aware the timeline is more complex; this is a simplification.) Acorn evaluated the 68000, the 80186, the NatSemi 16032 and others. It designed its own chip instead: the ARM, Acorn RISC Machine. This was first launched as an add-on accelerator for the BBC Micro. https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/48862/Acorn-1MB-A-Second-Processor/ https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/48862/Acorn-1MB-A-Se... It was later launched as an Acorn computer, running a 32-bit port of Acorn's MOS and BASIC. It included a 6502 emulators and so could run some BBC Micro software. https://www.onirom.fr/wiki/blog/21-04-2022_Acorn-Archimedes/ https://www.onirom.fr/wiki/blog/21-04-2022_Acorn-Archimedes/ That ARM chip is the direct ancestor of the chip in all Android devices, all iOS devices, and modern Macs.
- rjsw 1y agoIt is a bit closer link than that, the same people designed the BBC micro and ARM1.
- mark_undoio 1y agoAcorn was doing stuff in Cambridge UK until more recently than I'd realised - it effectively incubated a load of talent that went on to find other companies. Famously ARM span out of it but many others also went on to do cool things - my current company was founded by Acorn people.
- skissane 1y ago> In many ways, the tuple (BBC Micro, Acorn Computers, arm) is analogous to (IBM PC, Intel, x86). There was a radical difference in the relationship between the two corporations in each tuple. In the BBC-Acorn relationship, Acorn designed and manufactured the computer; BBC just offered their brand, did marketing, and supplied some high-level requirements. In the IBM-Intel relationship, IBM designed and manufactured the computer, and Intel was the CPU vendor, with many other customers. The 6502s used in the pre-ARM BBC systems were from MOS Technology–or one of their licensees, such as GTE/CMD–so those companies were really the Intel equivalent here
- hnuser123456 1y agoGTE: General Telephone & Electronics CMD: Commodore Micro-Devices
- skissane 1y agoCMD in this case being California Micro Devices, who bought GTE’s microprocessor business in the mid-to-late 1980s, and then was acquired by onsemi in 2009. The BBC Master used their CPUs There is another CMD, Creative Micro Designs, who sold aftermarket peripherals for Commodore 64/etc
- classichasclass 1y agoCommodore manufactured chips either under the MOS Technology or Commodore Semiconductor Group (CSG) names.
- jnaina 1y agoNotably, no mention of Sophie Wilson, who played a pivotal role in designing the original ARM ISA. Remarkably, the movie Micro Men also overlooked much of Sophie Wilson’s role, despite her work on ARM becoming one of the most significant technological advances in computing history, accept for a token cameo role as the pub landlady.
- quantummagic 1y agoAt the time of the original ARM ISA, Sophie Wilson was pre-transition and still a man named Roger Wilson. Not trying to be harsh, but it's really not exactly historically accurate to portray a woman being involved in the process at that time.
- foldr 1y agoI think their point is that the movie didn’t give much attention to her role, which doesn’t have anything to do with her gender. It’s generally considered to be bad form to refer to someone using their deadname even if you are talking about a period when they were using it. We should not make assumptions about someone’s gender identity before they “transitioned”. She was living as a man, but we don’t know how she identified at the time.
- bobalob 1y ago> as she would not have faced sexism while living as a man The irony here is that concepts like "living as a man" and "living as a woman" are inherently sexist.
- foldr 1y agoI agree, broadly speaking. I’m sure a lot of people (trans and otherwise) would love to escape the straightjacket of the gender binary, but an individual person has to find a way to live in the society they’re in.
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- linker3000 1y agoWell, I still own the ancestor - a BBC B. As a schoolboy I was one of a handful who were in the computer club. We had a CBM (PET) 3016, a few Acorn System Ones and a UK101 that was built by our physics teacher. One day this big grey prototyping keyboard case turned up. There was a microcassette unit fitted for loading and saving programs, and the whole thing was connected to a colour TV via an umbilical cord that looked like a vacuum cleaner hose. We were given task sheets with projects to complete on this unit, and we could control the TV from the keyboard, read Teletext pages AND download programs. It was a fun piece of kit that stayed with us for a couple of months. In hindsight, I realised that the unit was a pre-production BBC Micro and we'd been part of a pre-launch test programme thanks to that same physics teacher.
- jacquesm 1y agoWow! I have heard about these but have never seen one. And I was pretty close to the fire at the time so amazing that you actually worked with one. I did get a pre-production Archimedes when it was still in development and had a great time porting stuff to it.
- timthorn 1y agoAt Netherhall?
- jacquesm 1y agoWas this the one: https://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/A500.html https://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/A500.h...
- flir 1y agoMy school got our hands on a couple of desktops that would dual-boot Risc OS and a Unix by a similar route. Think they were ex-demo machines. (Looking at Wikipedia, I think they might have been R260s running RISC iX on the other partition).
- grahar64 1y agoA BBC micro was my first computer. Americans had Amegas or something, but I had a BBC and a big book with example BASIC programs.
- pavlov 1y agoThe Amiga was much bigger in Europe/UK than the US, though. The Apple II would be an example of the opposite.
- UncleSlacky 1y agoCurrency exchange rates in the early 80s meant that most US machines were much more expensive than their European equivalents.
- pavlov 1y agoCommodore, the owner of Amiga, was an American company but they had factories in Europe.
- jameshart 1y agoThe American equivalent of the BBC Micro was very much the Apple II. Both based on the 6502, both dominated the market of ‘first computers purchased en masse by schools’ in the 1980s in their respective countries. I always get the impression though that while the UK and European home computer era continued from a diverse eight-bit era of C64s, Spectrums, Amstrads and BBCs to the sixteen-bit era of Amigas and Atari STs, before the PC became dominant, in the US the early eight-bit home machines gave way much earlier to consoles - the NES at first, then the SNES and Megadrive.
- DrBazza 1y agoFor whatever reason, Acorn dropped the ball. At the time the Archimedes blew the nascent PC and every other machine out of the water, and yet couldn't get a toe-hold in the US market for reasons I've never quite understood. At the same point MS Windows looked shoddy at best in comparison to RiscOS.
- austinallegro 1y ago10 PRINT "COMMODORE 64 > *" 20 GOTO10 RUN
- JdeBP 1y agoIt would have been more apposite had you written it in BBC BASIC.
- bravesoul2 1y agoIs that not polyglot? Maybe needs GOTO(space)10
- digitaltinfoil 1y agoI still think about how great Castle Quest for the BBC was. That game was killer
- klelatti 1y agoI can remember attending a meeting of the Cambridge University Computer Society (in 1985?) when a presenter from Acorn (Steve Furber?) talked about the new CPU they had developed. I think the right adjective for the reaction of those present was 'incredulous'. A small team with no previous experience had created a powerful 32-bit design from scratch when 8-bit architectures were still commonly used. Had anyone told us that 40 years later we'd all be carrying around the 'descendants' of that first Acorn RISC Machine in our pockets then we'd have been utterly astonished.
- crinkly 1y agoNotably it was the first CPU they designed and the first silicon worked out of the box.
- mikehall314 1y agoOn the one occasion I met Steve Furber, he told me about how when they connected up the very first chip, he was surprised that the it started running before he had even connected the power. Turns out the design was such a low power design that just the voltage from the data lines was enough to run the chip.
- drumhead 1y agoI remember seeing their first RISC machine, the Archimedes at a computer show. Everyone thought RISC was going to be the future of computing because it was just so fast. Eventually it was I guess but x86 delayed it for a while.
- ThePowerOfFuet 1y agoI had one of these as a kid. Fond memories.
- taylorius 1y agoI always loved Acorn computers. My schoolfriend and I released a commercial game on the Archimedes, and in 1994 I wrote a 3D demo suite for Acorn's new RiscPC machine (powered by ARM, of course). The good old days of hacking around!
- bravesoul2 1y agoDo you mind sharing what game that was?
- taylorius 1y agoOf course. It was Redshift, released by Minerva software in 1990. Someone uploaded a video of it in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeENpUXvYhg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeENpUXvYhg
- bravesoul2 1y agoThat reminds me of arcade games of the early 90s. So that is a decent job making an arcade quality game on a microcomputer (expensive one sure... but still not a dedicated console).
- taylorius 1y agoHaha. Thanks man. I dimly remember it took some messing with the arm assembly to get the scrolling fast enough to make the v-sync. And also that we used the hardware mouse pointer sprite to draw the player's spaceship, to get an extra couple of colours. Good times!
- korginator 1y agoThe BBC micro was revolutionary. Had a few of these in school in the 1980's. This was the first machine I came across where you could program inline assembly, out of the box. Got me started on adventures with the amazing 6502 family, assembly language, RISC, hardware and a ton of fun things.
- amelius 1y agoWho were the people behind it? Is there a "Woz and Jobs" story to tell here?
- lproven 1y agoSort of. Sophie Wilson and Steve Furber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Wilson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Wilson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Furber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Furber
- dgl 1y agoNot exactly, but close, the BBC made Micro Men (2009) which covers the whole era, in a relatively accurate way... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Men
- UncleSlacky 1y agoIt's on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH5L-iTIbP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH5L-iTIbP8 (4K) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXBxV6-zamM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXBxV6-zamM (720p)
- parlortricks 1y agoI just watched this yesterday, and i thought it was fantastic. It would be great to have more of these kinds of movies to explain the rich history of tech, as there is just so much of it.
- mmwelt 1y agoThere's a good BBC emulator in your browser here, for those who want to play: https://bbc.xania.org/ https://bbc.xania.org/
- johnklos 1y agoThe article says, "ARM-based chips are found in nearly 60 percent of the world’s mobile devices". Does this 60% number include laptops? If not, I'd wager that number is greater than 95%.
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