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How do improvised bases offer protection, especially in a world where radar on satellites sees through clouds and certain vegetation? USAF's switch to improvis

How do improvised bases offer protection, especially in a world where radar on satellites sees through clouds and certain vegetation? USAF's switch to improvised bases seems to be motivated by needing to operate from small islands in the Pacific where they isn't enough solid ground to build a full airbase.

cutemonster 1y ago
If a plane can land anywhere to refuel and takes off again in 10 minutes, the other side needs a fast kill chain to catch the plane. But if they land on big well known bases, it's much simpler. Another comment here about slow drone speeds and nest drones: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44918955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44918955 And sometimes the other side can destroy all big airbases in a small country.
- trenchpilgrim 1y ago
  Thanks, that was clarifying for me!
- yencabulator 1y ago
  > And sometimes the other side can destroy all big airbases in a small country. Specifically, Swedish doctrine assumes all airfields are destroyed 24-48h after start of major conflict.
bell-cot 1y ago
In terms of military resources required, there's a vast difference between keeping a close eye on the other side's few known airfields, and keeping a close eye on every park, parking lot, farm field, forest clearing, etc., etc. in their country.
- trenchpilgrim 1y ago
  This kind of monitoring is something you can buy commercially now, for less than the cost of the weapons carried by a fighter jet on a single mission. However, revisit times are still long enough that sibling comment's remarks on mobility make sense.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    The very successful attack that Ukraine performed on Russian long range bombers would have never worked if those weren't tied to particular locations for a really long time. 6 months of planning and execution would have gone out of the window by a single late (as in the last 30 days) order to move things around. All airfields are now at risk of such attacks, including civilian ones. I would bet that within a year we'll see ransom attacks on airfields in open societies. The idea is out there and the capabilities are so cheap that any idiot could do it.
  - bell-cot 1y ago
    > ... can buy commercially now ... The schedules, radar frequencies, etc. of those commercial satellites are all public knowledge. (Based on timestamps) your reference is to user cutemonster's comment. Yep - "move immediately after the satellite passes" is a game that children can master. I would put a bit more weight on user walrus01's (later) sibling comment - on the problem of distinguishing small, pop-up air bases from routine civilian activities. Also, I suspect that very few of those commercial satellite radars have much resilience in the face of jamming. That is expensive and security-sensitive tech on the satellite operator's end, of minimal use to most users of the satellites' services. Vs. in a war zone, the diplomatic consequences of using cheap (relative to getting hit) ECM against surveillance satellites will usually be the lesser evil.
  - arccy 1y ago
    you can buy it if you have someone willing to sell it to you...
  - victorbjorklund 1y ago
    Not in practice. Not even russia has access to every inch of Ukraine 24/7.
walrus01 1y ago
> How do improvised bases offer protection, especially in a world where radar on satellites sees through clouds and certain vegetation? If operating from an airfield that has been improvised out of a straight stretch of highway, the grouping of vehicles that contain all of the necessary ground support equipment and munitions resupply can be disguised to resemble an ordinary civilian cargo box truck, or tractor trailer combo. Unless the attacking force is willing to begin with the resources needed, and repercussions of airstriking everything that looks like a civilian cargo truck moving in the region, it would be extremely difficult to eliminate the group of vehicle and men that compromise the ground support equipment element. Particularly when you might have multiple groups of such roaming randomly around an area.
- fl7305 1y ago
  The Swedish airforce doesn't have a "grouping of vehicles". They are all parked individually at separate locations kilometers away from the road landing strip. When the plane comes in for landing, they (3-5 pickup trucks and a tiny tanker) all scramble and meet up when the plane touches down. Refuel and rearm in 10 minutes, drive away again. I've seen this done with my own eyes, it's very impressive.
7952 1y ago
Maybe large industrial or commercial units would be the ideal place for inprovised bases now.
victorbjorklund 1y ago
You can land it on any road and hide it under trees etc. Is it perfect? No, but probably hell lot harder to spot it in a random forest on a random road on the countryside than finding one of a few airports

cutemonster 1y ago

If a plane can land anywhere to refuel and takes off again in 10 minutes, the other side needs a fast kill chain to catch the plane. But if they land on big well known bases, it's much simpler. Another comment here about slow drone speeds and nest drones: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44918955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44918955 And sometimes the other side can destroy all big airbases in a small country.

trenchpilgrim 1y ago
Thanks, that was clarifying for me!
yencabulator 1y ago
> And sometimes the other side can destroy all big airbases in a small country. Specifically, Swedish doctrine assumes all airfields are destroyed 24-48h after start of major conflict.

bell-cot 1y ago

In terms of military resources required, there's a vast difference between keeping a close eye on the other side's few known airfields, and keeping a close eye on every park, parking lot, farm field, forest clearing, etc., etc. in their country.

trenchpilgrim 1y ago
This kind of monitoring is something you can buy commercially now, for less than the cost of the weapons carried by a fighter jet on a single mission. However, revisit times are still long enough that sibling comment's remarks on mobility make sense.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  The very successful attack that Ukraine performed on Russian long range bombers would have never worked if those weren't tied to particular locations for a really long time. 6 months of planning and execution would have gone out of the window by a single late (as in the last 30 days) order to move things around. All airfields are now at risk of such attacks, including civilian ones. I would bet that within a year we'll see ransom attacks on airfields in open societies. The idea is out there and the capabilities are so cheap that any idiot could do it.
- bell-cot 1y ago
  > ... can buy commercially now ... The schedules, radar frequencies, etc. of those commercial satellites are all public knowledge. (Based on timestamps) your reference is to user cutemonster's comment. Yep - "move immediately after the satellite passes" is a game that children can master. I would put a bit more weight on user walrus01's (later) sibling comment - on the problem of distinguishing small, pop-up air bases from routine civilian activities. Also, I suspect that very few of those commercial satellite radars have much resilience in the face of jamming. That is expensive and security-sensitive tech on the satellite operator's end, of minimal use to most users of the satellites' services. Vs. in a war zone, the diplomatic consequences of using cheap (relative to getting hit) ECM against surveillance satellites will usually be the lesser evil.
- arccy 1y ago
  you can buy it if you have someone willing to sell it to you...
- victorbjorklund 1y ago
  Not in practice. Not even russia has access to every inch of Ukraine 24/7.

walrus01 1y ago

> How do improvised bases offer protection, especially in a world where radar on satellites sees through clouds and certain vegetation? If operating from an airfield that has been improvised out of a straight stretch of highway, the grouping of vehicles that contain all of the necessary ground support equipment and munitions resupply can be disguised to resemble an ordinary civilian cargo box truck, or tractor trailer combo. Unless the attacking force is willing to begin with the resources needed, and repercussions of airstriking everything that looks like a civilian cargo truck moving in the region, it would be extremely difficult to eliminate the group of vehicle and men that compromise the ground support equipment element. Particularly when you might have multiple groups of such roaming randomly around an area.

fl7305 1y ago
The Swedish airforce doesn't have a "grouping of vehicles". They are all parked individually at separate locations kilometers away from the road landing strip. When the plane comes in for landing, they (3-5 pickup trucks and a tiny tanker) all scramble and meet up when the plane touches down. Refuel and rearm in 10 minutes, drive away again. I've seen this done with my own eyes, it's very impressive.

7952 1y ago

Maybe large industrial or commercial units would be the ideal place for inprovised bases now.

victorbjorklund 1y ago

You can land it on any road and hide it under trees etc. Is it perfect? No, but probably hell lot harder to spot it in a random forest on a random road on the countryside than finding one of a few airports