4 ms·

> I'm American and kinda stunned how little salience the issue has. Please punish us as much as possible. The EU has already agreed to one of the most lopsided

by petcat 1y ago

> I'm American and kinda stunned how little salience the issue has. Please punish us as much as possible. The EU has already agreed to one of the most lopsided trade deals in history as a result of all of this. It's a business arrangement just like any other, and at this point it's pretty clear where the leverage is. It's not with the EU.

refulgentis 1y ago
Let's accept that. Then my mind turns to a couple things. America was founded on the intellectual rejection of one man taxes on imports. Demonstrations of power are not an end unto themselves, they are theater and province of the weak minded.
- petcat 1y ago
  Fair enough, but in this case the "theater" seems to have produced tangible, one-sided terms that will impact billions in USA-EU trade. Regardless of whether it's rooted in principle or posturing, the EU still has to live with its economic reality. And that reality heavily favors USA in whatever they deem necessary to facilitate their economy. The EU didn't agree to the one-sided trade deal for no reason.
  - refulgentis 1y ago
    It doesn't sound one-sided at all? I'm honestly confused, you sort of repeated "but the US was willing to impose higher taxes on its citizens than the EU" I get there's the pandemic of the braindead thinking they've invented new economics like new gravity, but I'd think it'd feel a bit absurd when it's that bald-faced. I'd especially think it was absurd when you can check on how the markets, the real skin in the game, price this fantastic W.
    - rayiner 1y ago
      The countries that have 10-20% VAT don’t think consumption taxes are bad, lol. Most countries that aren’t the U.S. take affirmative steps to discourage imports and encourage exports. Sometimes they even engage in currency manipulation to make exports artificially cheap while making imports more expensive. Many of the big EU countries are export-oriented economies. Germany is not upset about the trade deal because they perceive it as a “fantastic W.” https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2025/07/29/german-politicians-furious-at-von-der-leyen-over-new-eu-us-trade-deal https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2025/07/29/german-politic.... They don’t want Germans buying American products tax free. They want Americans to buy German products tax free.
      - refulgentis 1y ago
        The compilation of unrelated "water is wet" things like VAT is a consumption tax, opposition party complains in Germany, belies that you are violently agreeing that yes, the big W is the US is in fact willing to have higher "consumption taxes" than anywhere else. I think it's reasonable to need to perform a ritualistic EU sneering with this much Winning occuring, but it's a little bit disquieting see it sort of cause this black hole where you can't discuss the thing at hand, just complain about other things.
        rayiner 1y ago
        You’re just glibly saying “haha taxes.” But Germany (1) clearly doesn’t think consumption taxes are bad—and tariffs are just consumption taxes that have the added benefit of discouraging imports; and (2) don’t think they’re winning with this trade deal.
- rayiner 1y ago
  > America was founded on the intellectual rejection of one man taxes on imports The 1789 constitution created a federal government that was funded chiefly by import duties! Setting up the system of import taxes was one of the first things Congress did. Import taxes were also a founding plank of Lincoln’s GOP.
ants_everywhere 1y ago
The EU recognized that the US placed a large tax on American consumers and saw no reason to place a similar tax on European consumers. They'll just ramp up economic production and turn toward China like we're seeing with BYD penetration.
- petcat 1y ago
  > US placed a large tax on American consumers The 15% flat tariff (with 0% reciprocal tariff), was only a small part of the agreement. > They'll just ramp up economic production and turn toward China like we're seeing with BYD penetration. EU also agreed to $750 billion in USA energy purchases over the next three years and another $600 billion in miscellaneous investments in USA companies and industries.
  - sasvari 1y ago
    That's not really up for the EU to decide on.
    - petcat 1y ago
      The EU negotiates as a bloc. If the trade deal includes $750 billion in energy purchases and $600 billion in investments, those commitments came from the EU's negotiating mandate, not from separate members acting on their own. Maybe some of the EU member states don't like how the "union" operates. In that case, they should pull a Brexit. We already saw it happen once.
      - sasvari 1y ago
        Neither the EU, nor its member states, have the power to make investment decisions on behalf of private companies. https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-600bn-us-investment-will-come-exclusively-from-private-sector/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-600bn-us-investment-will... The extra investments pledged under the trade deal would come from private companies, which Brussels conceded it has no power to control.
rayiner 1y ago
[flagged]
- maest 1y ago
  What is the purpose of such inflammatory language and lopsided argumentation? Very poor form.
riffraff 1y ago
The EU made a bad deal from a propaganda point of view, and as a European I wish it had not. But the truth is: there is no concrete deal beyond the tariff. There are supposed investments and expenses the EU will do which have not been specified and would need to be approved by national governments. This will be a nothingburger, cause all Trump cares about is the announcement, not any actual effect. You may know this cause even in his first term he made a deal to export beef to the EU, which sounded big, but was effectively un-impactful once the details were hammered out.
- petre 1y ago
  Sure, we import more beef from Mercosur countries than US beef from soy fed cattle. The EU customer is rather educated about what they eat. This is just how the $600 bn worth of investments will pan out, leading Trump to state time again that the EU has screwed the US. Fortunately he'll be too old by then to be taken seriously.
  - flohofwoe 1y ago
    > Fortunately he'll be too old by then to be taken seriously. Tbf, Trump is already too old and is already not being taken seriously by anybody, so...

by petcat 1y ago

refulgentis 1y ago

Let's accept that. Then my mind turns to a couple things. America was founded on the intellectual rejection of one man taxes on imports. Demonstrations of power are not an end unto themselves, they are theater and province of the weak minded.

petcat 1y ago
Fair enough, but in this case the "theater" seems to have produced tangible, one-sided terms that will impact billions in USA-EU trade. Regardless of whether it's rooted in principle or posturing, the EU still has to live with its economic reality. And that reality heavily favors USA in whatever they deem necessary to facilitate their economy. The EU didn't agree to the one-sided trade deal for no reason.
- refulgentis 1y ago
  It doesn't sound one-sided at all? I'm honestly confused, you sort of repeated "but the US was willing to impose higher taxes on its citizens than the EU" I get there's the pandemic of the braindead thinking they've invented new economics like new gravity, but I'd think it'd feel a bit absurd when it's that bald-faced. I'd especially think it was absurd when you can check on how the markets, the real skin in the game, price this fantastic W.
  - rayiner 1y ago
    The countries that have 10-20% VAT don’t think consumption taxes are bad, lol. Most countries that aren’t the U.S. take affirmative steps to discourage imports and encourage exports. Sometimes they even engage in currency manipulation to make exports artificially cheap while making imports more expensive. Many of the big EU countries are export-oriented economies. Germany is not upset about the trade deal because they perceive it as a “fantastic W.” https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2025/07/29/german-politicians-furious-at-von-der-leyen-over-new-eu-us-trade-deal https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2025/07/29/german-politic.... They don’t want Germans buying American products tax free. They want Americans to buy German products tax free.
    - refulgentis 1y ago
      The compilation of unrelated "water is wet" things like VAT is a consumption tax, opposition party complains in Germany, belies that you are violently agreeing that yes, the big W is the US is in fact willing to have higher "consumption taxes" than anywhere else. I think it's reasonable to need to perform a ritualistic EU sneering with this much Winning occuring, but it's a little bit disquieting see it sort of cause this black hole where you can't discuss the thing at hand, just complain about other things.
      - rayiner 1y ago
        You’re just glibly saying “haha taxes.” But Germany (1) clearly doesn’t think consumption taxes are bad—and tariffs are just consumption taxes that have the added benefit of discouraging imports; and (2) don’t think they’re winning with this trade deal.
rayiner 1y ago
> America was founded on the intellectual rejection of one man taxes on imports The 1789 constitution created a federal government that was funded chiefly by import duties! Setting up the system of import taxes was one of the first things Congress did. Import taxes were also a founding plank of Lincoln’s GOP.

ants_everywhere 1y ago

The EU recognized that the US placed a large tax on American consumers and saw no reason to place a similar tax on European consumers. They'll just ramp up economic production and turn toward China like we're seeing with BYD penetration.

petcat 1y ago
> US placed a large tax on American consumers The 15% flat tariff (with 0% reciprocal tariff), was only a small part of the agreement. > They'll just ramp up economic production and turn toward China like we're seeing with BYD penetration. EU also agreed to $750 billion in USA energy purchases over the next three years and another $600 billion in miscellaneous investments in USA companies and industries.
- sasvari 1y ago
  That's not really up for the EU to decide on.
  - petcat 1y ago
    The EU negotiates as a bloc. If the trade deal includes $750 billion in energy purchases and $600 billion in investments, those commitments came from the EU's negotiating mandate, not from separate members acting on their own. Maybe some of the EU member states don't like how the "union" operates. In that case, they should pull a Brexit. We already saw it happen once.
    - sasvari 1y ago
      Neither the EU, nor its member states, have the power to make investment decisions on behalf of private companies. https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-600bn-us-investment-will-come-exclusively-from-private-sector/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-600bn-us-investment-will... The extra investments pledged under the trade deal would come from private companies, which Brussels conceded it has no power to control.

rayiner 1y ago

[flagged]

maest 1y ago
What is the purpose of such inflammatory language and lopsided argumentation? Very poor form.

riffraff 1y ago

The EU made a bad deal from a propaganda point of view, and as a European I wish it had not. But the truth is: there is no concrete deal beyond the tariff. There are supposed investments and expenses the EU will do which have not been specified and would need to be approved by national governments. This will be a nothingburger, cause all Trump cares about is the announcement, not any actual effect. You may know this cause even in his first term he made a deal to export beef to the EU, which sounded big, but was effectively un-impactful once the details were hammered out.

petre 1y ago
Sure, we import more beef from Mercosur countries than US beef from soy fed cattle. The EU customer is rather educated about what they eat. This is just how the $600 bn worth of investments will pan out, leading Trump to state time again that the EU has screwed the US. Fortunately he'll be too old by then to be taken seriously.
- flohofwoe 1y ago
  > Fortunately he'll be too old by then to be taken seriously. Tbf, Trump is already too old and is already not being taken seriously by anybody, so...