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Switzerland also has an open fixed-price deal for 36 F-35s. The US are trying to alter the deal and raise the price to ~1 billion USD more than agreed to. I

Switzerland also has an open fixed-price deal for 36 F-35s. The US are trying to alter the deal and raise the price to ~1 billion USD more than agreed to. I wish Switzerland would do the same and cancel the deal. On top of that Switzerland should go a step further and impose a tax on gold exported to the united states if they don't stop with their silly little 39% tariffs on imported Swiss goods. Just ridiculous and embarrassing to sever long running trade relationships out of ignorance.

mcmcmc 1y ago
There is no such thing as a tariff on exports. Tariffs are specifically an import tax intended to increase domestic demand for domestically produced goods by shifting it away from imported goods
- blktiger 1y ago
  I think he meant export taxes or export duties.
- mrandish 1y ago
  > There is no such thing as a tariff on exports. That's correct, or at least it was until this week. Did you happen to see the recent announcement where NVidia and AMD are now apparently required to pay 15% of the revenue from GPUs exported to China to the U.S. government? This is apparently GPUs which were, prior to this new 15% payment, "too harmful to our national security" to export to China. Frankly, I only saw the headlines and haven't looked into it myself yet - mostly because it makes my head hurt trying to even tally the laws, policies and trade agreements doing this would probably violate. So, I'm admittedly unclear on the details but it sure sounds like an "export tariff".
  - singleshot_ 1y ago
    My limited understanding is that this is going to be an offset against the applicable import tariff, not an export tariff.
    - Tostino 1y ago
      So, a roundabout way to do the same thing that he's prohibited from doing by the Constitution? Yeah, that sounds totally legit.
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        The new legal is where you just do what you want and if you get away with it (by hook or by crook) then it was legal.
        singleshot_ 1y ago
        That was the old legal, too. Source: lawyer who understands the core element of law is enforceability, but who is not himself a criminal due to quality upbringing
  - mcmcmc 1y ago
    It’s just an export tax. The reason they are trying to call it anything but that is because the constitution specifically prohibits it
    - insane_dreamer 1y ago
      or we could describe it by its actual term, extortion. step 1) tell businesses they can no longer export X product because of "national security concerns"; 2) tell businesses the "national security concerns" can be dropped if they pay 15% of sales. in other words, threaten to put up barriers than agree to take them down for a "fee"; it's exactly what the mafia does
- graeme 1y ago
  Not correct actually. Checked dictionary, tariff applies to an import or an export. It just isn't commonly done to apply an export tariff.
- csomar 1y ago
  Tariff is just a different name for "tax". You can tax imports, and you can also tax exports. You can also tax anything that moves, or doesn't.
- insane_dreamer 1y ago
  > There is no such thing as a tariff on exports Tell that to Nvidia and AMD
refulgentis 1y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > Edit: also, for the historians, it's absolutely stunning how little power the legal system has. For historians (and political scientists, for similar reasons), it is not stunning at all. It might be stunning for other people, but people who study history are likely to be very aware that the legal system isn’t magic and is ultimately only a notional agreement about what society will tolerate which has only the weight that people refusing to tolerate violations gives it.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    Indeed, checks and balances mean absolutely nothing if there is no will to enforce. This is the main innovation of the Trump administration: to prove that the checks and balances that we thought were in place are absolutely meaningless.
- petcat 1y ago
  > I'm American and kinda stunned how little salience the issue has. Please punish us as much as possible. The EU has already agreed to one of the most lopsided trade deals in history as a result of all of this. It's a business arrangement just like any other, and at this point it's pretty clear where the leverage is. It's not with the EU.
  - refulgentis 1y ago
    Let's accept that. Then my mind turns to a couple things. America was founded on the intellectual rejection of one man taxes on imports. Demonstrations of power are not an end unto themselves, they are theater and province of the weak minded.
mrtksn 1y ago
Swiss appear to believe that if they kiss hard enough they will get favorable terms, so they confirmed that the f-35 deal is still on. This f-45 thing was always a way to pledge allegiance and pay your duty to USA for the protection more than actually intending to use the aircraft. Swiss also pride themselves to European but having their own way of doing things, and as a result they aren't going to join EU. Tough times, wishing them the best luck.
- sureglymop 1y ago
  There are more things that make the whole ordeal more controversial. For one, the swiss people voted for the procurement of a new fleet of fighter jets with a majority of 50.1%. They later voted to approve a budget of 6 billion swiss franks for this. The current proposed price by the US now exceeds that budget. Also, this procurement process was driven by former Swiss Defence Minister Viola Amherd who has since stepped down from her position. While the deal may still be own, it will probably be altered such that it is within budget (lower quantity). Tough times indeed.
gpt5 1y ago
>The US are trying to alter the deal I don't understand why people claim that. Here are the actual facts/timeline: Nov 2021: Switzerland agreed contract terms with the U.S. government for 36 F-35A and budgeted CHF 6.035 bn. Under U.S. FMS (Foreign military sales) rules, LOA (letter of offer) values are estimates and the buyer owes actual full cost, so this was not an enforceable CHF-fixed total. May 2022: The Swiss Federal Audit Office warned of legal uncertainty around any fixed price, but the warning was ignored internally. Sep 2022: Parliament authorized; LOA signed Sep 19, 2022. Jun 2025: Switzerland announced the U.S. disputes a binding fixed price and sought a diplomatic solution. U.S. officials pointed to inflation/raw-material/energy costs that have changed. Aug 2025: Switzerland announced it cannot legally enforce a fixed price and is estimating additional costs (+CHF 650 m–1.3 bn).
- wbl 1y ago
  Good timeline but would be better to put in that inflation was pretty big over that period as well.
  - fakedang 1y ago
    Pointing to consumer or raw material inflation in the context of defence is a bit of a strawman argument. Defence deals are made for products that are supposed to often last 30-40 years at minimum. All factors such as inflation and potential continuing maintenance are already priced in at the onset. Unless the product faces significant issues down the line, or faces unexpected and ungodly levels of demand, price per product remains largely constant. Early buyers are paying the premium for early access to the tech, while late buyers are paying the same for an older product with inflation priced in.
    - dralley 1y ago
      Fighter jets are not immune to normal economics. If the material costs of production inputs go up, then so will the cost of the fighter, unless there was some pre-agreed binding contract which locks in the price, which in this case there was not. Switzerland should have negotiated a guaranteed price given how long the timelines on delivery were.

mcmcmc 1y ago

There is no such thing as a tariff on exports. Tariffs are specifically an import tax intended to increase domestic demand for domestically produced goods by shifting it away from imported goods

blktiger 1y ago
I think he meant export taxes or export duties.
mrandish 1y ago
> There is no such thing as a tariff on exports. That's correct, or at least it was until this week. Did you happen to see the recent announcement where NVidia and AMD are now apparently required to pay 15% of the revenue from GPUs exported to China to the U.S. government? This is apparently GPUs which were, prior to this new 15% payment, "too harmful to our national security" to export to China. Frankly, I only saw the headlines and haven't looked into it myself yet - mostly because it makes my head hurt trying to even tally the laws, policies and trade agreements doing this would probably violate. So, I'm admittedly unclear on the details but it sure sounds like an "export tariff".
- singleshot_ 1y ago
  My limited understanding is that this is going to be an offset against the applicable import tariff, not an export tariff.
  - Tostino 1y ago
    So, a roundabout way to do the same thing that he's prohibited from doing by the Constitution? Yeah, that sounds totally legit.
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      The new legal is where you just do what you want and if you get away with it (by hook or by crook) then it was legal.
      - singleshot_ 1y ago
        That was the old legal, too. Source: lawyer who understands the core element of law is enforceability, but who is not himself a criminal due to quality upbringing
- mcmcmc 1y ago
  It’s just an export tax. The reason they are trying to call it anything but that is because the constitution specifically prohibits it
  - insane_dreamer 1y ago
    or we could describe it by its actual term, extortion. step 1) tell businesses they can no longer export X product because of "national security concerns"; 2) tell businesses the "national security concerns" can be dropped if they pay 15% of sales. in other words, threaten to put up barriers than agree to take them down for a "fee"; it's exactly what the mafia does
graeme 1y ago
Not correct actually. Checked dictionary, tariff applies to an import or an export. It just isn't commonly done to apply an export tariff.
csomar 1y ago
Tariff is just a different name for "tax". You can tax imports, and you can also tax exports. You can also tax anything that moves, or doesn't.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
> There is no such thing as a tariff on exports Tell that to Nvidia and AMD

refulgentis 1y ago

[flagged]

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 1y ago
> Edit: also, for the historians, it's absolutely stunning how little power the legal system has. For historians (and political scientists, for similar reasons), it is not stunning at all. It might be stunning for other people, but people who study history are likely to be very aware that the legal system isn’t magic and is ultimately only a notional agreement about what society will tolerate which has only the weight that people refusing to tolerate violations gives it.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- jacquesm 1y ago
  Indeed, checks and balances mean absolutely nothing if there is no will to enforce. This is the main innovation of the Trump administration: to prove that the checks and balances that we thought were in place are absolutely meaningless.
petcat 1y ago
> I'm American and kinda stunned how little salience the issue has. Please punish us as much as possible. The EU has already agreed to one of the most lopsided trade deals in history as a result of all of this. It's a business arrangement just like any other, and at this point it's pretty clear where the leverage is. It's not with the EU.
- refulgentis 1y ago
  Let's accept that. Then my mind turns to a couple things. America was founded on the intellectual rejection of one man taxes on imports. Demonstrations of power are not an end unto themselves, they are theater and province of the weak minded.

mrtksn 1y ago

Swiss appear to believe that if they kiss hard enough they will get favorable terms, so they confirmed that the f-35 deal is still on. This f-45 thing was always a way to pledge allegiance and pay your duty to USA for the protection more than actually intending to use the aircraft. Swiss also pride themselves to European but having their own way of doing things, and as a result they aren't going to join EU. Tough times, wishing them the best luck.

sureglymop 1y ago
There are more things that make the whole ordeal more controversial. For one, the swiss people voted for the procurement of a new fleet of fighter jets with a majority of 50.1%. They later voted to approve a budget of 6 billion swiss franks for this. The current proposed price by the US now exceeds that budget. Also, this procurement process was driven by former Swiss Defence Minister Viola Amherd who has since stepped down from her position. While the deal may still be own, it will probably be altered such that it is within budget (lower quantity). Tough times indeed.

gpt5 1y ago

>The US are trying to alter the deal I don't understand why people claim that. Here are the actual facts/timeline: Nov 2021: Switzerland agreed contract terms with the U.S. government for 36 F-35A and budgeted CHF 6.035 bn. Under U.S. FMS (Foreign military sales) rules, LOA (letter of offer) values are estimates and the buyer owes actual full cost, so this was not an enforceable CHF-fixed total. May 2022: The Swiss Federal Audit Office warned of legal uncertainty around any fixed price, but the warning was ignored internally. Sep 2022: Parliament authorized; LOA signed Sep 19, 2022. Jun 2025: Switzerland announced the U.S. disputes a binding fixed price and sought a diplomatic solution. U.S. officials pointed to inflation/raw-material/energy costs that have changed. Aug 2025: Switzerland announced it cannot legally enforce a fixed price and is estimating additional costs (+CHF 650 m–1.3 bn).

wbl 1y ago
Good timeline but would be better to put in that inflation was pretty big over that period as well.
- fakedang 1y ago
  Pointing to consumer or raw material inflation in the context of defence is a bit of a strawman argument. Defence deals are made for products that are supposed to often last 30-40 years at minimum. All factors such as inflation and potential continuing maintenance are already priced in at the onset. Unless the product faces significant issues down the line, or faces unexpected and ungodly levels of demand, price per product remains largely constant. Early buyers are paying the premium for early access to the tech, while late buyers are paying the same for an older product with inflation priced in.
  - dralley 1y ago
    Fighter jets are not immune to normal economics. If the material costs of production inputs go up, then so will the cost of the fighter, unless there was some pre-agreed binding contract which locks in the price, which in this case there was not. Switzerland should have negotiated a guaranteed price given how long the timelines on delivery were.