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The same Texas that has statewide power outages every time it gets below freezing (despite knowing for 25+ years it’s a problem) because of their lack of regula

by tw04 1y ago

The same Texas that has statewide power outages every time it gets below freezing (despite knowing for 25+ years it’s a problem) because of their lack of regulation and central planning? Let’s not be anything like Texas.

huhkerrf 1y ago
This just shows how you know only the talking points. The power outages are not due to lack of central planning, it's very explicitly the reverse. If Texas were hooked up to the rest of the country, those outages would not be a thing. It's the purposeful regulation that has caused those problems.
- Calavar 1y ago
  So you're saying when the Texas grid fails, it's because of over overegulation. But the solution to those failures is to tap into the national grid, a grid that follows stricter FERC regulations. This argument doesn't make any sense.
  - huhkerrf 1y ago
    No, I'm saying it's because of _poor_ overegulation.
- tw04 1y ago
  > The power outages are not due to lack of central planning It is 100% due to lack of central planning. The outages were caused by a lack of winterizarion of natural gas pumps which was a known issue in Texas but the lack of regulation meant companies could just ignore the problem. Why invest in winterizing when you can just jack up prices and make even more money when they freeze and there’s not enough power to meet demand? There’s a reason the power doesn’t go out in the winter anywhere else in the country when it gets below freezing and it’s not “a lack of regulation”.
  - infecto 1y ago
    Winterization was a problem but it was also a problem for other regions that are part of FERC. You’re latching onto the wrong problem. FERC has updated guidelines since that storm.
- schneems 1y ago
  I guess you’re saying that the current status is mandated by the design of the grid. Which is true, but that status would be best described as “deregulated” rather than “purposeful regulation.” Lack of regulation and oversite around weatherization and redundancy is the main source of our problems. The Texas’ grid is market based and so unregulated that it’s not connected to the national grid so it can avoid federal regulation. I recommend this podcast to anyone interested https://kutkutx.studio/category/the-disconnect-power-politics-and-the-texas-blackout https://kutkutx.studio/category/the-disconnect-power-politic.... I learned that our current Texas grid was designed by Enron.
  - placardloop 1y ago
    Every single state surrounding Texas was also suffering from power outages due to the winter storm in 2021, despite all of those states being part of the non-Texas interconnections. The outages in those states weren’t as bad, but even if Texas was better connected to them, there’s no guarantee that they would have had any power to share.
    - schneems 1y ago
      I was personally without power for 72 hours in sub zero temps. Every night I went to bed and wondered if my kids would be alive when/if I woke up. You know what that feels like? I can’t do anything to *guarantee* you’ll never experience it, but I can take steps to decrease the chances or decrease the severity/dueation. I think my kids are worth it. Even if it’s not a *guarantee*. Now that’s out of the way. I recommend you listen to the podcast. Really. Even if you lived through it. Even if you think you know everything about it. You will learn something I guarantee. It’s well produced and an easy listen. It’s an eye opener too. “The Disconnect”
      - placardloop 1y ago
        Your condescending appeal to emotion does nothing to change the facts. My family and I too lived through the winter storm, going multiple days without power. It doesn’t change anything about what I said. The national-vs-local-grid topic is a red herring, as even the non-Texas grids were without power. If you want to actually change things, you need to acknowledge these facts rather than letting yourself be controlled by emotion.
infecto 1y ago
I would not entirely dismiss the way the power market works in Texas. I have not disagreement the 2021 storm should never have happened. At the same time though, I don’t believe other energy markets work very well either. I would prefer a more Texas like approach but with some thoughtfulness around capacity instead of just generation.
- tw04 1y ago
  > I have not disagreement the 2021 storm should never have happened. But they still haven’t fixed any of the issues. The exact same thing is going to happen again when (not if) it freezes. > I would prefer a more Texas like approach but with some thoughtfulness around capacity instead of just generation. Capacity isn’t the issue. Lack of winterization of pumps is the issue. Because that costs money and private companies have zero incentive to make the investment if government doesn’t force them to.
  - infecto 1y ago
    You are missing the forest for the trees. Winterization is a fix for last time’s failure, not a strategy for the future. A market like Texas can work if it values resilience alongside price efficiency, meaning capacity planning, diversified generation, and yes, some enforced standards. Otherwise you’re just running a lean system that collapses the moment reality strays from the model. That storm was an issue for other markets as well but they were mostly able to get away with rolling blackouts due to interconnects. Those same markets and similar winterization issues but were under FERC guidelines. Folks love to anchor onto to winterization issue like it did not impact other FERC regions.
    - tw04 1y ago
      >You are missing the forest for the trees. I'm really not. >Winterization is a fix for last time’s failure, not a strategy for the future. A market like Texas can work if it values resilience alongside price efficiency, meaning capacity planning, diversified generation, and yes, some enforced standards. Otherwise you’re just running a lean system that collapses the moment reality strays from the model. What are you even trying to say? A private company isn't going to magically "value resilience" if there's no incentive to do so. They make MORE money when they have outages, why would they prevent that? The solution to the issue, which has worked literally everywhere else, is government regulation. Talk about missing the forest for the trees. "If only capitalism didn't work the way it works it would be perfect". >That storm was an issue for other markets as well but they were mostly able to get away with rolling blackouts due to interconnects. Those same markets and similar winterization issues but were under FERC guidelines. Folks love to anchor onto to winterization issue like it did not impact other FERC regions. Citation of which other markets had blackouts due to not winterizing pumps that had been called out repeatedly after identical outages prior in 2010 and 1989? You conveniently left that out, I'm sure it was just an oversight. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Texas-grid-again-faces-scrutiny-over-cold-15955392.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Tex... Because if I had to bet money, you're talking about the power companies in other states who WERE prepared for the freeze asking homeowners to drop their thermostats a couple degrees because the cold snap was driving demand significantly higher than normal. NOT because of power plant outages due to lack of preparation and component failure - due to lack of regulation.
zbrozek 1y ago
I'm a Californian in PG&E territory. My power is unreliable and expensive. I'd take the Texas outcome every time.

by tw04 1y ago

huhkerrf 1y ago

This just shows how you know only the talking points. The power outages are not due to lack of central planning, it's very explicitly the reverse. If Texas were hooked up to the rest of the country, those outages would not be a thing. It's the purposeful regulation that has caused those problems.

Calavar 1y ago
So you're saying when the Texas grid fails, it's because of over overegulation. But the solution to those failures is to tap into the national grid, a grid that follows stricter FERC regulations. This argument doesn't make any sense.
- huhkerrf 1y ago
  No, I'm saying it's because of _poor_ overegulation.
tw04 1y ago
> The power outages are not due to lack of central planning It is 100% due to lack of central planning. The outages were caused by a lack of winterizarion of natural gas pumps which was a known issue in Texas but the lack of regulation meant companies could just ignore the problem. Why invest in winterizing when you can just jack up prices and make even more money when they freeze and there’s not enough power to meet demand? There’s a reason the power doesn’t go out in the winter anywhere else in the country when it gets below freezing and it’s not “a lack of regulation”.
- infecto 1y ago
  Winterization was a problem but it was also a problem for other regions that are part of FERC. You’re latching onto the wrong problem. FERC has updated guidelines since that storm.
schneems 1y ago
I guess you’re saying that the current status is mandated by the design of the grid. Which is true, but that status would be best described as “deregulated” rather than “purposeful regulation.” Lack of regulation and oversite around weatherization and redundancy is the main source of our problems. The Texas’ grid is market based and so unregulated that it’s not connected to the national grid so it can avoid federal regulation. I recommend this podcast to anyone interested https://kutkutx.studio/category/the-disconnect-power-politics-and-the-texas-blackout https://kutkutx.studio/category/the-disconnect-power-politic.... I learned that our current Texas grid was designed by Enron.
- placardloop 1y ago
  Every single state surrounding Texas was also suffering from power outages due to the winter storm in 2021, despite all of those states being part of the non-Texas interconnections. The outages in those states weren’t as bad, but even if Texas was better connected to them, there’s no guarantee that they would have had any power to share.
  - schneems 1y ago
    I was personally without power for 72 hours in sub zero temps. Every night I went to bed and wondered if my kids would be alive when/if I woke up. You know what that feels like? I can’t do anything to *guarantee* you’ll never experience it, but I can take steps to decrease the chances or decrease the severity/dueation. I think my kids are worth it. Even if it’s not a *guarantee*. Now that’s out of the way. I recommend you listen to the podcast. Really. Even if you lived through it. Even if you think you know everything about it. You will learn something I guarantee. It’s well produced and an easy listen. It’s an eye opener too. “The Disconnect”
    - placardloop 1y ago
      Your condescending appeal to emotion does nothing to change the facts. My family and I too lived through the winter storm, going multiple days without power. It doesn’t change anything about what I said. The national-vs-local-grid topic is a red herring, as even the non-Texas grids were without power. If you want to actually change things, you need to acknowledge these facts rather than letting yourself be controlled by emotion.

infecto 1y ago

I would not entirely dismiss the way the power market works in Texas. I have not disagreement the 2021 storm should never have happened. At the same time though, I don’t believe other energy markets work very well either. I would prefer a more Texas like approach but with some thoughtfulness around capacity instead of just generation.

tw04 1y ago
> I have not disagreement the 2021 storm should never have happened. But they still haven’t fixed any of the issues. The exact same thing is going to happen again when (not if) it freezes. > I would prefer a more Texas like approach but with some thoughtfulness around capacity instead of just generation. Capacity isn’t the issue. Lack of winterization of pumps is the issue. Because that costs money and private companies have zero incentive to make the investment if government doesn’t force them to.
- infecto 1y ago
  You are missing the forest for the trees. Winterization is a fix for last time’s failure, not a strategy for the future. A market like Texas can work if it values resilience alongside price efficiency, meaning capacity planning, diversified generation, and yes, some enforced standards. Otherwise you’re just running a lean system that collapses the moment reality strays from the model. That storm was an issue for other markets as well but they were mostly able to get away with rolling blackouts due to interconnects. Those same markets and similar winterization issues but were under FERC guidelines. Folks love to anchor onto to winterization issue like it did not impact other FERC regions.
  - tw04 1y ago
    >You are missing the forest for the trees. I'm really not. >Winterization is a fix for last time’s failure, not a strategy for the future. A market like Texas can work if it values resilience alongside price efficiency, meaning capacity planning, diversified generation, and yes, some enforced standards. Otherwise you’re just running a lean system that collapses the moment reality strays from the model. What are you even trying to say? A private company isn't going to magically "value resilience" if there's no incentive to do so. They make MORE money when they have outages, why would they prevent that? The solution to the issue, which has worked literally everywhere else, is government regulation. Talk about missing the forest for the trees. "If only capitalism didn't work the way it works it would be perfect". >That storm was an issue for other markets as well but they were mostly able to get away with rolling blackouts due to interconnects. Those same markets and similar winterization issues but were under FERC guidelines. Folks love to anchor onto to winterization issue like it did not impact other FERC regions. Citation of which other markets had blackouts due to not winterizing pumps that had been called out repeatedly after identical outages prior in 2010 and 1989? You conveniently left that out, I'm sure it was just an oversight. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Texas-grid-again-faces-scrutiny-over-cold-15955392.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Tex... Because if I had to bet money, you're talking about the power companies in other states who WERE prepared for the freeze asking homeowners to drop their thermostats a couple degrees because the cold snap was driving demand significantly higher than normal. NOT because of power plant outages due to lack of preparation and component failure - due to lack of regulation.

zbrozek 1y ago

I'm a Californian in PG&E territory. My power is unreliable and expensive. I'd take the Texas outcome every time.