6 ms·

I’m just going to say it: you are wrong, protests, public pressure and civil disobedience are why you have many of the right you have today. I get you don’t hav

by khalic 1y ago

I’m just going to say it: you are wrong, protests, public pressure and civil disobedience are why you have many of the right you have today. I get you don’t have the will/energy/possibility to do anything, but don’t go around telling lies about the usefulness of public intervention.

doublerabbit 1y ago
> you are wrong, protests, public pressure and civil disobedience are why you have many of the right you have today. Once upon a time, yes. But they don't work in the modern world we live in now. Show me a successful protest that achieved change in the past ten years?
- khalic 1y ago
  Wasn’t turkye’s failed coup less than 10 years ago? Direct result of public intervention The French yellow vest The Dutch farmer protests I can go on if you want
  - doublerabbit 1y ago
    Those are European, cool. Any successful UK protests? As that is the country we are talking about here.
    - khalic 1y ago
      Are you going to move the goalpost further if I give you one?
      - doublerabbit 1y ago
        I was specifically targeting protests in the UK. As we are talking about the UK.
        khalic 1y ago
        And I was specifically talking about UKs lack of protest, see the issue here?
        doublerabbit 1y ago
        But the UK is not lacking in protest; we do protest. What I am saying is that protesting is a method of freedom & rebellion that is now flawed for today's modern world. It may work in a few odd countries but overall now achieves nothing. Protests do not work in these modern times. It may of worked in the in the 1800's because society was maybe of been more united, less corrupted in power however the power that folks had has been chiseled away and has been decaying ever since. Adding the fact we are now more divided than ever. The only kind of protest that would work today are those of who use their wallet. Stop buying from corporations from the likes of Amazon, funding Google. But no, we won't do that; whatever would you do without your Amazon prime. Instead let's hold a stick with cardboard glued to it and pretend that politicians care. (spoiler: they don't) Protesting about war and then buying resources to protest about the war off Amazon who back the war is face-palming hilarious. Otherwise everything is a just waste of time, resources and exposure. But by all means, if it makes yourself feel better then go for it. And no, I didn't vote for Brexit.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        khalic 1y ago
        No I get what you’re getting at. I might have a different idea (maybe anachronistic indeed) of what protesting means, having done it in my youth.
        rightbyte 1y ago
        > Instead let's hold a stick with cardboard glued to it and pretend that politicians care. (spoiler: they don't) If you have too weak internal political support for something cardboard signs do help push something maybe over the edge.
    - tekla 1y ago
      Brexit
      - extraisland 1y ago
        Brexit wasn't a protest. It was a campaign.
skeezyboy 1y ago
how are the plebs meant to operate the state machinations? even Farage went to private school. We are a generation away from being able to make a difference beyond the riots
extraisland 1y ago
There are a number of issues with this view: - I've been to many protests in my time and often I believe them to be counter productive e.g. Critical Mass. I travelled to London twice to see what the protest was about. This was in the mid-2000s. I saw lots of annoyed commuters, lots of people getting drunk/high and it was more of a social gathering than a protest. - Street movements are easily infiltrated by malign actors e.g. The CIA have a term called "initial instigator", this is where you turn a riot into a protest by inserting a person or people that will cause trouble. The CIA (and I would imagine British Intelligence) have handbooks on how to subvert/run a protest/riot. You can find these online. - Many of the protesters you see maybe part of a rent-a-mob. You can literally go to company, and much like you would for film or TV hire a bunch of people to be in the background. - I have plenty of will and energy to get involved. However often I find that many leaders make the mistake of being too inclusive. This means that often you will end up with people that will intentionally or unintentionally turn your movement into something else. If you listen to some of the account of people that were at Occupy Wallstreet, this is one of the reasons why the protests failed.
- khalic 1y ago
  You’re analysing things in a vacuum, there are historical and contemporary examples of public protest, pressure campaigns and civil disobedience leading to policy change, and you’re arguing they’re what, all CIA plants or impossible? If not, please make your point clearer. Have you any proof that these rent a mob thing exists? You used “maybe part”... Please find a specific service for renting a mob, not a single individual or small group. Or proof that this service exists, because this is an awfully convenient way to bend the narrative to your side “they were all faking it” is almost never a valid hypothesis
  - extraisland 1y ago
    > You’re analysing things in a vacuum, there are historical and contemporary examples of public protest, pressure campaigns and civil disobedience leading to policy change, and you’re arguing they’re what, all CIA plants or impossible? If not, please make your point clearer. I am not analysing things in a vaccum. I gave you some reasons why I don't believe these things are productive today. One of those is an example from my own personal experience of being at a protest that literally had 1000s of people there. I don't believe that all of it was CIA plants and never said that. I explained how street movements are infiltrated by malign actors and how some intelligence agencies have used these techniques. > Have you any proof that these rent a mob thing exists? You used “maybe part”... Please find a specific service for renting a mob, not a single individual or small group. Or proof that this service exists, because this is an awfully convenient way to bend the narrative to your side “they were all faking it” is almost never a valid hypothesis. It is well documented. Just not commonly known. TBH you could have looked this up yourself. It isn't really any different than hiring extras for a TV/Movie production (as I previously stated). https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rent-a-crowd.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rent-a-crowd.asp Companies and political parties have been doing it for quite a while. e.g. https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-aide-says-paid-actors-for-2016-campaign-announcement-2021-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-aide-says-paid-actors-... or some of the sites themselves give you examples of where they have done it. https://www.rentacrowduk.co.uk/hire-a-crowd-case-studies/ https://www.rentacrowduk.co.uk/hire-a-crowd-case-studies/ Here are some companies that literally offer it as a service, I found these after doing a two minute google: https://www.envisagepromotions.co.uk/services/crowd-services/rent-a-crowd/ https://www.envisagepromotions.co.uk/services/crowd-services... https://www.rentacrowduk.co.uk/ https://www.rentacrowduk.co.uk/ https://dreamsagency.co.uk/hire-a-crowd/ https://dreamsagency.co.uk/hire-a-crowd/ I am sure there are many others.
GeoAtreides 1y ago
Spoken like a man who doesn't know what kettling is. Or expedited judicial process for (some) rioters, with prison time for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

by khalic 1y ago

doublerabbit 1y ago

> you are wrong, protests, public pressure and civil disobedience are why you have many of the right you have today. Once upon a time, yes. But they don't work in the modern world we live in now. Show me a successful protest that achieved change in the past ten years?

khalic 1y ago
Wasn’t turkye’s failed coup less than 10 years ago? Direct result of public intervention The French yellow vest The Dutch farmer protests I can go on if you want
- doublerabbit 1y ago
  Those are European, cool. Any successful UK protests? As that is the country we are talking about here.
  - khalic 1y ago
    Are you going to move the goalpost further if I give you one?
    - doublerabbit 1y ago
      I was specifically targeting protests in the UK. As we are talking about the UK.
      - khalic 1y ago
        And I was specifically talking about UKs lack of protest, see the issue here?
        doublerabbit 1y ago
        But the UK is not lacking in protest; we do protest. What I am saying is that protesting is a method of freedom & rebellion that is now flawed for today's modern world. It may work in a few odd countries but overall now achieves nothing. Protests do not work in these modern times. It may of worked in the in the 1800's because society was maybe of been more united, less corrupted in power however the power that folks had has been chiseled away and has been decaying ever since. Adding the fact we are now more divided than ever. The only kind of protest that would work today are those of who use their wallet. Stop buying from corporations from the likes of Amazon, funding Google. But no, we won't do that; whatever would you do without your Amazon prime. Instead let's hold a stick with cardboard glued to it and pretend that politicians care. (spoiler: they don't) Protesting about war and then buying resources to protest about the war off Amazon who back the war is face-palming hilarious. Otherwise everything is a just waste of time, resources and exposure. But by all means, if it makes yourself feel better then go for it. And no, I didn't vote for Brexit.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        khalic 1y ago
        No I get what you’re getting at. I might have a different idea (maybe anachronistic indeed) of what protesting means, having done it in my youth.
        rightbyte 1y ago
        > Instead let's hold a stick with cardboard glued to it and pretend that politicians care. (spoiler: they don't) If you have too weak internal political support for something cardboard signs do help push something maybe over the edge.
  - tekla 1y ago
    Brexit
    - extraisland 1y ago
      Brexit wasn't a protest. It was a campaign.

skeezyboy 1y ago

how are the plebs meant to operate the state machinations? even Farage went to private school. We are a generation away from being able to make a difference beyond the riots

extraisland 1y ago

There are a number of issues with this view: - I've been to many protests in my time and often I believe them to be counter productive e.g. Critical Mass. I travelled to London twice to see what the protest was about. This was in the mid-2000s. I saw lots of annoyed commuters, lots of people getting drunk/high and it was more of a social gathering than a protest. - Street movements are easily infiltrated by malign actors e.g. The CIA have a term called "initial instigator", this is where you turn a riot into a protest by inserting a person or people that will cause trouble. The CIA (and I would imagine British Intelligence) have handbooks on how to subvert/run a protest/riot. You can find these online. - Many of the protesters you see maybe part of a rent-a-mob. You can literally go to company, and much like you would for film or TV hire a bunch of people to be in the background. - I have plenty of will and energy to get involved. However often I find that many leaders make the mistake of being too inclusive. This means that often you will end up with people that will intentionally or unintentionally turn your movement into something else. If you listen to some of the account of people that were at Occupy Wallstreet, this is one of the reasons why the protests failed.

khalic 1y ago
You’re analysing things in a vacuum, there are historical and contemporary examples of public protest, pressure campaigns and civil disobedience leading to policy change, and you’re arguing they’re what, all CIA plants or impossible? If not, please make your point clearer. Have you any proof that these rent a mob thing exists? You used “maybe part”... Please find a specific service for renting a mob, not a single individual or small group. Or proof that this service exists, because this is an awfully convenient way to bend the narrative to your side “they were all faking it” is almost never a valid hypothesis
- extraisland 1y ago
  > You’re analysing things in a vacuum, there are historical and contemporary examples of public protest, pressure campaigns and civil disobedience leading to policy change, and you’re arguing they’re what, all CIA plants or impossible? If not, please make your point clearer. I am not analysing things in a vaccum. I gave you some reasons why I don't believe these things are productive today. One of those is an example from my own personal experience of being at a protest that literally had 1000s of people there. I don't believe that all of it was CIA plants and never said that. I explained how street movements are infiltrated by malign actors and how some intelligence agencies have used these techniques. > Have you any proof that these rent a mob thing exists? You used “maybe part”... Please find a specific service for renting a mob, not a single individual or small group. Or proof that this service exists, because this is an awfully convenient way to bend the narrative to your side “they were all faking it” is almost never a valid hypothesis. It is well documented. Just not commonly known. TBH you could have looked this up yourself. It isn't really any different than hiring extras for a TV/Movie production (as I previously stated). https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rent-a-crowd.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rent-a-crowd.asp Companies and political parties have been doing it for quite a while. e.g. https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-aide-says-paid-actors-for-2016-campaign-announcement-2021-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-aide-says-paid-actors-... or some of the sites themselves give you examples of where they have done it. https://www.rentacrowduk.co.uk/hire-a-crowd-case-studies/ https://www.rentacrowduk.co.uk/hire-a-crowd-case-studies/ Here are some companies that literally offer it as a service, I found these after doing a two minute google: https://www.envisagepromotions.co.uk/services/crowd-services/rent-a-crowd/ https://www.envisagepromotions.co.uk/services/crowd-services... https://www.rentacrowduk.co.uk/ https://www.rentacrowduk.co.uk/ https://dreamsagency.co.uk/hire-a-crowd/ https://dreamsagency.co.uk/hire-a-crowd/ I am sure there are many others.

GeoAtreides 1y ago

Spoken like a man who doesn't know what kettling is. Or expedited judicial process for (some) rioters, with prison time for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.