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And for some reason a contingent of HN is cheering it on. We are breaking the innovation machine and pretending discoveries will just keep happening.

kstrauser 1y ago
In any sizable group, you're going to find a vocal jackass minority. But here, at least, they genuinely seem to be the minority.
- selectodude 1y ago
  I'm surprised you see it that way. I find that HN has far more techbro fascists on it than most other places for rather clear and obvious reasons.
  - kstrauser 1y ago
    In raw numbers, sure. But as a percentage, I don't see that. For every fascitechbro, I come across 10 hardcore GPL furries. There's still a huge representation of Information Wants To Be Free types, and that keeps me coming back.
radu_floricica 1y ago
I'm probably part of the contingent you're alluding to. I'm not cheering. I am however a lot less likely to be depressed, mostly because whenever I tried to fact check a doom-like piece of news, I found it failing, hard. So now I'm at a "once every three months" rotation - which will of course change the first time I manage to confirm a piece of news. I am moderately pessimistic about the state of research because I do hear things I don't like, but this is compensated by my belief that US academia has a ridiculous amount of institutional entropy, and I'm perfectly willing with temporary issues if this means at least some of the long term problems will be improved. So overall... cautiously optimistic? Long term at least. Is that cheering? And since the grandparent also mentioned visas - here at least I have a pretty simple opinion. Congress should step up and reform immigration laws. They've avoided doing this for decades, and it's kinda useless to put the blame anywhere else. (for context I'm not american, and my country just had the visa waiver canceled this year by the current administration, so I'm actually on the other side of the fence).
- searine 1y ago
  >I am moderately pessimistic about the state of research because I do hear things I don't like, but this is compensated by my belief that US academia has a ridiculous amount of institutional entropy, and I'm perfectly willing with temporary issues if this means at least some of the long term problems will be improved I am confused how 'burn it all down' will solve any problems, let alone long term ones. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how innovation works. The 'deal' of basic science in the US is that the government funds broadly and without prejudice. Topics are decided by experts and overseen by experts. These experts are taking large pay-cuts (compared to their worth in industry) to have the freedom to investigate their own interests. In return the public gets a vast amount of R&D on the cheap, much of which doesn't seem to have immediate ROI, but as we well know, has tremendous long term ROI. Yes sometimes those ideas are dead-ends or don't replicate. Yes sometimes fraud/plagiarism happens. Yes sometimes people research minorities or marginalized people. Certain interests have made some people believe that these are symptoms of a broken system when in reality they are all just parts of the scientific process and freedom of thought. These interests mostly have used culture war issues as a wedge to defund science broadly. So no, we should not destroy tomorrows cancer treatment (which could save you or the ones you love) because some tech-oligarch wants more money/power.
  - radu_floricica 1y ago
    You quoted my comment, but you don't seem to be responding to it? I don't think I mentioned any burning it all down, nor anything you responded to, really.
    - searine 1y ago
      Your 'pessimism' towards academia is the justification the 'burn it all down' people are using to ... burn it all down. I'm not exaggerating. The innovation machine is currently ablaze. Even funded grants for things like cancer and alzheimers aren't being paid out because they fired all the grants processors. Multiple whole universities have been defunded entirely. An entire generation of scientists will have their careers stolen from them if this continues.
1over137 1y ago
>And for some reason a contingent of HN is cheering it on. Seems easily understood. Only 5% of humanity are USians, for the rest, 'your loss is our gain'. Where cowmix wishes for all the brilliant minds to come to the US, the countries that lose those people call it a 'brain drain', and the reduction of that brain drain is most welcome.
- cowmix 1y ago
  I’m not saying everyone should “come to the US.” But I don’t want people avoiding the US because of insane, self-inflicted barriers our own government chooses to put up. I’d rather see top candidates pick Canada, the EU, or even China because they’re getting a genuinely better opportunity — not because the US went off the rails. We’re forfeiting leadership in science and innovation for petty, internal, anti-progress reasons.

kstrauser 1y ago

In any sizable group, you're going to find a vocal jackass minority. But here, at least, they genuinely seem to be the minority.

selectodude 1y ago
I'm surprised you see it that way. I find that HN has far more techbro fascists on it than most other places for rather clear and obvious reasons.
- kstrauser 1y ago
  In raw numbers, sure. But as a percentage, I don't see that. For every fascitechbro, I come across 10 hardcore GPL furries. There's still a huge representation of Information Wants To Be Free types, and that keeps me coming back.

radu_floricica 1y ago

I'm probably part of the contingent you're alluding to. I'm not cheering. I am however a lot less likely to be depressed, mostly because whenever I tried to fact check a doom-like piece of news, I found it failing, hard. So now I'm at a "once every three months" rotation - which will of course change the first time I manage to confirm a piece of news. I am moderately pessimistic about the state of research because I do hear things I don't like, but this is compensated by my belief that US academia has a ridiculous amount of institutional entropy, and I'm perfectly willing with temporary issues if this means at least some of the long term problems will be improved. So overall... cautiously optimistic? Long term at least. Is that cheering? And since the grandparent also mentioned visas - here at least I have a pretty simple opinion. Congress should step up and reform immigration laws. They've avoided doing this for decades, and it's kinda useless to put the blame anywhere else. (for context I'm not american, and my country just had the visa waiver canceled this year by the current administration, so I'm actually on the other side of the fence).

searine 1y ago
>I am moderately pessimistic about the state of research because I do hear things I don't like, but this is compensated by my belief that US academia has a ridiculous amount of institutional entropy, and I'm perfectly willing with temporary issues if this means at least some of the long term problems will be improved I am confused how 'burn it all down' will solve any problems, let alone long term ones. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how innovation works. The 'deal' of basic science in the US is that the government funds broadly and without prejudice. Topics are decided by experts and overseen by experts. These experts are taking large pay-cuts (compared to their worth in industry) to have the freedom to investigate their own interests. In return the public gets a vast amount of R&D on the cheap, much of which doesn't seem to have immediate ROI, but as we well know, has tremendous long term ROI. Yes sometimes those ideas are dead-ends or don't replicate. Yes sometimes fraud/plagiarism happens. Yes sometimes people research minorities or marginalized people. Certain interests have made some people believe that these are symptoms of a broken system when in reality they are all just parts of the scientific process and freedom of thought. These interests mostly have used culture war issues as a wedge to defund science broadly. So no, we should not destroy tomorrows cancer treatment (which could save you or the ones you love) because some tech-oligarch wants more money/power.
- radu_floricica 1y ago
  You quoted my comment, but you don't seem to be responding to it? I don't think I mentioned any burning it all down, nor anything you responded to, really.
  - searine 1y ago
    Your 'pessimism' towards academia is the justification the 'burn it all down' people are using to ... burn it all down. I'm not exaggerating. The innovation machine is currently ablaze. Even funded grants for things like cancer and alzheimers aren't being paid out because they fired all the grants processors. Multiple whole universities have been defunded entirely. An entire generation of scientists will have their careers stolen from them if this continues.

1over137 1y ago

>And for some reason a contingent of HN is cheering it on. Seems easily understood. Only 5% of humanity are USians, for the rest, 'your loss is our gain'. Where cowmix wishes for all the brilliant minds to come to the US, the countries that lose those people call it a 'brain drain', and the reduction of that brain drain is most welcome.

cowmix 1y ago
I’m not saying everyone should “come to the US.” But I don’t want people avoiding the US because of insane, self-inflicted barriers our own government chooses to put up. I’d rather see top candidates pick Canada, the EU, or even China because they’re getting a genuinely better opportunity — not because the US went off the rails. We’re forfeiting leadership in science and innovation for petty, internal, anti-progress reasons.