4 ms·

I completely agree. Free for the poor people but don't give free stuffs to the other people (including me). Public services are NEVER really free - they take $$

I completely agree. Free for the poor people but don't give free stuffs to the other people (including me). Public services are NEVER really free - they take $$ from taxes. Looks like many people simply don't care about taxes.

amanaplanacanal 1y ago
You either spend the tax money on roads, or on public transit. Roads aren't free either.
- bluGill 1y ago
  Roads are cheaper than transit as far as taxes go. Most of the costs of driving isn't supported by taxes - you buy and maintain your own car (the large share of the costs), and park in private parking lots. Transit not only needs the roads/rails (granted much less), but also needs to buy and maintain all the vehicles plus pay operators for them. The total costs of transit are far less, but the cost to governments is more.
- qcnguy 1y ago
  Roads are much cheaper and more useful. They can be used for moving freight whereas good public transport keeps freight off the lines to avoid timetabling problems caused by blockage.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    They're not cheaper, that's an illusion and lie sold by the automobile and petroleum industries. The interstates in the US alone have costed more than 25 trillion dollars. That's just the interstates, no other highways or roads. But none of that even considers cost of using said roads. In the US, on average 15% of gross income is spent on automobile transportation. That's a 15% tax right off the top, before your other taxes.
    - baggy_trough 1y ago
      That spending pattern means that automobile transportation is very valuable compared to alternatives.
      - const_cast 1y ago
        Or it means oil and automobiles are lucrative industries with huge amount of influence. The reasoning of "we spend a lot of money so it must be good" is just bad. No, we spend a lot of money on stupid shit all the time. Both historically and currently.
        baggy_trough 1y ago
        I don't think people are as foolish as that when spending large amounts of their own money. There must be a good reason for it.
        const_cast 1y ago
        The reason is they have no choice. Consumers are the bottom of the totem pole. Americans spend on average 15% of their gross income on automobile transportation. That's not including their taxes that went towards said automobiles, roads, and oil. Nobody actually wants to do that. If you could get to work without an automobile, you would. But you can't, can you? Automobiles are parasidic in nature. To work, they require vast amounts of space and sprawling urban design. But when you get said vast amounts of space and sprawling urban design, then automobiles are the only thing that makes sense.
        baggy_trough 1y ago
        That's my point. Automobiles are much better than any other alternative. We have a car centric built environment because people have rationally decided for many valid reasons that automobiles are the best way to get around. It's not because they are "parasitic", whatever that means.
  - birn559 1y ago
    Rails can and are used to transport freight. Trucks contribute a lot to bad traffic and therefore the same kind of blockage you mentioned.
    - qcnguy 1y ago
      Rail freight is dying everywhere outside the USA, where passenger rail died instead. Mixing the two on the same lines is very difficult and causes tremendous problems, you can't even do it once passenger rail speeds get high enough. Rail freight has been uncompetitive with trucking for a long time as a result even though rail has huge subsidies and road traffic is a revenue generator for governments.
      - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
        Is road traffic really a revenue generator for governments outside the US? In the US, it's a huge cost sink and has to be subsidized with general taxes.
        qcnguy 1y ago
        Sure. Road and fuel taxes have historically generated a surplus after the costs of maintaining the roads are subtracted. EVs are changing that because they don't pay fuel tax. So, governments are now proposing to change how vehicles are taxed to make the roads pay for themselves again. The USA is different to Europe because gas taxes are a political live wire there in a way they just aren't in Europe. Presidents win campaigns by promising to reduce the price of gas! So of course the road network is in deficit there, it's a populist move. The equivalent populism in Europe is to make public transport free instead, as the governments are more collectivist minded there, whereas in the US personal freedom is a major concern.

amanaplanacanal 1y ago

You either spend the tax money on roads, or on public transit. Roads aren't free either.

bluGill 1y ago
Roads are cheaper than transit as far as taxes go. Most of the costs of driving isn't supported by taxes - you buy and maintain your own car (the large share of the costs), and park in private parking lots. Transit not only needs the roads/rails (granted much less), but also needs to buy and maintain all the vehicles plus pay operators for them. The total costs of transit are far less, but the cost to governments is more.
qcnguy 1y ago
Roads are much cheaper and more useful. They can be used for moving freight whereas good public transport keeps freight off the lines to avoid timetabling problems caused by blockage.
- const_cast 1y ago
  They're not cheaper, that's an illusion and lie sold by the automobile and petroleum industries. The interstates in the US alone have costed more than 25 trillion dollars. That's just the interstates, no other highways or roads. But none of that even considers cost of using said roads. In the US, on average 15% of gross income is spent on automobile transportation. That's a 15% tax right off the top, before your other taxes.
  - baggy_trough 1y ago
    That spending pattern means that automobile transportation is very valuable compared to alternatives.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      Or it means oil and automobiles are lucrative industries with huge amount of influence. The reasoning of "we spend a lot of money so it must be good" is just bad. No, we spend a lot of money on stupid shit all the time. Both historically and currently.
      - baggy_trough 1y ago
        I don't think people are as foolish as that when spending large amounts of their own money. There must be a good reason for it.
        const_cast 1y ago
        The reason is they have no choice. Consumers are the bottom of the totem pole. Americans spend on average 15% of their gross income on automobile transportation. That's not including their taxes that went towards said automobiles, roads, and oil. Nobody actually wants to do that. If you could get to work without an automobile, you would. But you can't, can you? Automobiles are parasidic in nature. To work, they require vast amounts of space and sprawling urban design. But when you get said vast amounts of space and sprawling urban design, then automobiles are the only thing that makes sense.
        baggy_trough 1y ago
        That's my point. Automobiles are much better than any other alternative. We have a car centric built environment because people have rationally decided for many valid reasons that automobiles are the best way to get around. It's not because they are "parasitic", whatever that means.
- birn559 1y ago
  Rails can and are used to transport freight. Trucks contribute a lot to bad traffic and therefore the same kind of blockage you mentioned.
  - qcnguy 1y ago
    Rail freight is dying everywhere outside the USA, where passenger rail died instead. Mixing the two on the same lines is very difficult and causes tremendous problems, you can't even do it once passenger rail speeds get high enough. Rail freight has been uncompetitive with trucking for a long time as a result even though rail has huge subsidies and road traffic is a revenue generator for governments.
    - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
      Is road traffic really a revenue generator for governments outside the US? In the US, it's a huge cost sink and has to be subsidized with general taxes.
      - qcnguy 1y ago
        Sure. Road and fuel taxes have historically generated a surplus after the costs of maintaining the roads are subtracted. EVs are changing that because they don't pay fuel tax. So, governments are now proposing to change how vehicles are taxed to make the roads pay for themselves again. The USA is different to Europe because gas taxes are a political live wire there in a way they just aren't in Europe. Presidents win campaigns by promising to reduce the price of gas! So of course the road network is in deficit there, it's a populist move. The equivalent populism in Europe is to make public transport free instead, as the governments are more collectivist minded there, whereas in the US personal freedom is a major concern.