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Until we hit zero percent unemployment, we have a surplus of labor in this country and have no need to import any more. It is up to employers to pay competitiv

by _mlbt 1y ago

Until we hit zero percent unemployment, we have a surplus of labor in this country and have no need to import any more. It is up to employers to pay competitive wages and train people to fill the vacancies.

seanmcdirmid 1y ago
If you do this, you'll have unintended consequences: - You don't allow the US to import skilled workers anymore, and rather than hire locally from a non-existent labor pool they simply move the jobs abroad. What's worse, hiring someone from India on an H1B to work in your AI lab, or moving your AI lab to India? - You don't allow importing unskilled workers and expect farmers to pay $30/hour to have Americans pick apples. Or maybe...they'll just figure out how to automate those jobs or go out of business since no one wants to pay $5 for an apple.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >- You don't allow importing unskilled workers and expect farmers to pay $30/hour to have Americans pick apples. That's the same argument used against abolishment of slavery. "Who will pick all the cotton?" Except today it's not slavery, it's indentured servitude.
  - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
    No, it means the elevator operator just doesn't exist anymore. We didn't pay them more, we got rid of them. If agriculture workers don't exist anymore at the wages the market is willing to bear, we just won't bother with those foods anymore, or import them from somewhere else. I'm uncomfortable with how racist HN has become. Because your ancestors were white they were permitted a chance to work from the bottom up, but because today's immigrants aren't white, you think its either slavery or exploitation, and they should just stay in poor countries accordingly (a situation that was not forced on your ancestors, for your benefit). Or if it isn’t racism, what is your reasoning for pulling up the ladder today?
    - _mlbt 1y ago
      > I'm uncomfortable with how racist HN has become. You’re the one that’s bringing race into the argument. I don’t care what race they are, I don’t want any illegal immigrants in this country. America’s obligation is to its own citizens first and foremost. This should not be a controversial opinion. Every country should put the interests of its own citizens first.
    - lesuorac 1y ago
      > If agriculture workers don't exist anymore at the wages the market is willing to bear, we just won't bother with those foods anymore, or import them from somewhere else. Expand H-2A: Temporary Agricultural Worker visa then. We shouldn't be encouraging black market activity. If as the US we want to have cheap imported labor pick apples then write it into law. If we as the US want to experience the Baumol effect [1] then don't. I think most people want to experience the Baumol effect as opposed to losing out gains to trade. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      So ironic that your post full of racist name calling and wanting to support a perpetual underclass of people stuck in indentured servitude, masquerading as empathy, and then you're the one calling everyone who disagrees with you racist. Pro tip: in case of actual racism, use the flag button.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- aaronbaugher 1y ago
  How many minutes do you think it takes to pick an apple? The claim is always made that if Americans have to do the work, food prices will skyrocket, but it's just not true. Labor is a portion of the wholescale cost of food, which is a portion of the retail cost. A lot goes to shipping, packaging, processing, marketing, etc. If all migrant workers were replaced by Americans being paid a competitive wage, food prices would go up a little, but you wouldn't pay double for apples, let alone several times more. Highly-processed foods like cereal and pasta wouldn't change noticeably.
  - _mlbt 1y ago
    HN hive mind…minimum wage for fast food workers should be $40 an hour. Also HN hive mind…if we can’t import illegal immigrants working for subsistence wages, who will pick our crops?
  - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
    > The claim is always made that if Americans have to do the work, food prices will skyrocket, but it's just not true My claim isn't that "if Americans have to do the work", my claim is that "Americans don't want to do the work", even at $30-40/hour most Americans still don't want to pick apples, and that is already an unreasonable price. It might be that (barring automation) we simply don't grow/pick apples in the USA anymore, for the same reason that other industries/jobs have become obsolete because the economics simply don't make sense anymore. Farmers will grow something else that is more economical to deal with given the labor costs they have to deal with, they simply won't grow apples anymore if it no longer makes sense.
    - _mlbt 1y ago
      > My claim isn't that "if Americans have to do the work", my claim is that "Americans don't want to do the work", even at $30-40/hour most Americans still don't want to pick apples, and that is already an unreasonable price. There is no evidence that this is actually true. Decades of illegal immigrant labor has suppressed wages and supplanted American citizens, so you have no way of knowing that’s the case.
dghlsakjg 1y ago
Zero percent unemployment is viewed as a bad thing by almost everyone with a familiarity of the employment markets. Zero percent unemployment means that no one without a job is looking for one. It means no new entrants into the job market (since by definition, you are unemployed the moment you start looking for your first job). And it means that no one is transitioning jobs or careers without a firm job offer in hand. It means that no business ever fails. It means that it is remarkably difficult to find employees. It means that there are no employees that quit instead of doing something immoral. You should look into the different types of unemployment, as well as the definition of "unemployed", and specifically, frictional unemployment since you seem very unfamiliar with the base concepts.
- _mlbt 1y ago
  Okay, maybe not literally zero percent unemployment, but my point still stands that we do not have a shortage of labor in this country and we do not need to import any at this time. We should incentivize workers through better compensation and retraining to fill skill gaps.
  - dghlsakjg 1y ago
    There is not a shortage of labor in general. There is possibly a shortage of specialized labor (although arguably not in high skilled and technical positions like the H1B intends/typically aims to fill). Again, people study this and have a name for it: structural unemployment. This is the unemployment level caused by employers needing to hire for skills that the market cannot currently provide. Think of the town with high unemployment due to a car factory closure, but a local business that needs scuba diving instructors can't find one. Plenty of labor, but no scuba diving instructors. I think this is what you are getting at: If you want to hire someone foreign because the skills don't exist in the local labor market, you should be obligated to prove that the skill is being developed in the local labor market. The argument (not mine, just an argument) against that is that individual firms should not necessarily be forced to bear the cost of training workers in a portable skill when you can just bring in non-local labor (H1B). Back to the Scuba shop example: it costs 5 figures and 6+ months to train a non-diver to the level of scuba instructor. It is good for the labor pool to force the shop to train a new instructor, even if they have to pay a massive cost for them to get certified, and the labor can quit the day they get certified. It is bad for consumers and the shop. They would much rather pay lower prices and bring in a foreign instructor than run short handed for months while they plow money into training someone in a skill that the worker can take to their competition. My feeling is that H1Bs are probably useful in much more limited circumstances than they are used in now (probably something more like O-1 visas that are given for people who are leaders in their fields, or demonstrably and uniquely talented). If the H1B job can be done interchangeably, then it should be done by domestic labor. If you want to hire the one guy who just won a nobel prize to work on your time machine, that is when we should allow foreign labor.
maxerickson 1y ago
The pie grows guy, it isn't zero sum.

by _mlbt 1y ago

seanmcdirmid 1y ago

If you do this, you'll have unintended consequences: - You don't allow the US to import skilled workers anymore, and rather than hire locally from a non-existent labor pool they simply move the jobs abroad. What's worse, hiring someone from India on an H1B to work in your AI lab, or moving your AI lab to India? - You don't allow importing unskilled workers and expect farmers to pay $30/hour to have Americans pick apples. Or maybe...they'll just figure out how to automate those jobs or go out of business since no one wants to pay $5 for an apple.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>- You don't allow importing unskilled workers and expect farmers to pay $30/hour to have Americans pick apples. That's the same argument used against abolishment of slavery. "Who will pick all the cotton?" Except today it's not slavery, it's indentured servitude.
- seanmcdirmid 1y ago
  No, it means the elevator operator just doesn't exist anymore. We didn't pay them more, we got rid of them. If agriculture workers don't exist anymore at the wages the market is willing to bear, we just won't bother with those foods anymore, or import them from somewhere else. I'm uncomfortable with how racist HN has become. Because your ancestors were white they were permitted a chance to work from the bottom up, but because today's immigrants aren't white, you think its either slavery or exploitation, and they should just stay in poor countries accordingly (a situation that was not forced on your ancestors, for your benefit). Or if it isn’t racism, what is your reasoning for pulling up the ladder today?
  - _mlbt 1y ago
    > I'm uncomfortable with how racist HN has become. You’re the one that’s bringing race into the argument. I don’t care what race they are, I don’t want any illegal immigrants in this country. America’s obligation is to its own citizens first and foremost. This should not be a controversial opinion. Every country should put the interests of its own citizens first.
  - lesuorac 1y ago
    > If agriculture workers don't exist anymore at the wages the market is willing to bear, we just won't bother with those foods anymore, or import them from somewhere else. Expand H-2A: Temporary Agricultural Worker visa then. We shouldn't be encouraging black market activity. If as the US we want to have cheap imported labor pick apples then write it into law. If we as the US want to experience the Baumol effect [1] then don't. I think most people want to experience the Baumol effect as opposed to losing out gains to trade. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    So ironic that your post full of racist name calling and wanting to support a perpetual underclass of people stuck in indentured servitude, masquerading as empathy, and then you're the one calling everyone who disagrees with you racist. Pro tip: in case of actual racism, use the flag button.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
aaronbaugher 1y ago
How many minutes do you think it takes to pick an apple? The claim is always made that if Americans have to do the work, food prices will skyrocket, but it's just not true. Labor is a portion of the wholescale cost of food, which is a portion of the retail cost. A lot goes to shipping, packaging, processing, marketing, etc. If all migrant workers were replaced by Americans being paid a competitive wage, food prices would go up a little, but you wouldn't pay double for apples, let alone several times more. Highly-processed foods like cereal and pasta wouldn't change noticeably.
- _mlbt 1y ago
  HN hive mind…minimum wage for fast food workers should be $40 an hour. Also HN hive mind…if we can’t import illegal immigrants working for subsistence wages, who will pick our crops?
- seanmcdirmid 1y ago
  > The claim is always made that if Americans have to do the work, food prices will skyrocket, but it's just not true My claim isn't that "if Americans have to do the work", my claim is that "Americans don't want to do the work", even at $30-40/hour most Americans still don't want to pick apples, and that is already an unreasonable price. It might be that (barring automation) we simply don't grow/pick apples in the USA anymore, for the same reason that other industries/jobs have become obsolete because the economics simply don't make sense anymore. Farmers will grow something else that is more economical to deal with given the labor costs they have to deal with, they simply won't grow apples anymore if it no longer makes sense.
  - _mlbt 1y ago
    > My claim isn't that "if Americans have to do the work", my claim is that "Americans don't want to do the work", even at $30-40/hour most Americans still don't want to pick apples, and that is already an unreasonable price. There is no evidence that this is actually true. Decades of illegal immigrant labor has suppressed wages and supplanted American citizens, so you have no way of knowing that’s the case.

dghlsakjg 1y ago

Zero percent unemployment is viewed as a bad thing by almost everyone with a familiarity of the employment markets. Zero percent unemployment means that no one without a job is looking for one. It means no new entrants into the job market (since by definition, you are unemployed the moment you start looking for your first job). And it means that no one is transitioning jobs or careers without a firm job offer in hand. It means that no business ever fails. It means that it is remarkably difficult to find employees. It means that there are no employees that quit instead of doing something immoral. You should look into the different types of unemployment, as well as the definition of "unemployed", and specifically, frictional unemployment since you seem very unfamiliar with the base concepts.

_mlbt 1y ago
Okay, maybe not literally zero percent unemployment, but my point still stands that we do not have a shortage of labor in this country and we do not need to import any at this time. We should incentivize workers through better compensation and retraining to fill skill gaps.
- dghlsakjg 1y ago
  There is not a shortage of labor in general. There is possibly a shortage of specialized labor (although arguably not in high skilled and technical positions like the H1B intends/typically aims to fill). Again, people study this and have a name for it: structural unemployment. This is the unemployment level caused by employers needing to hire for skills that the market cannot currently provide. Think of the town with high unemployment due to a car factory closure, but a local business that needs scuba diving instructors can't find one. Plenty of labor, but no scuba diving instructors. I think this is what you are getting at: If you want to hire someone foreign because the skills don't exist in the local labor market, you should be obligated to prove that the skill is being developed in the local labor market. The argument (not mine, just an argument) against that is that individual firms should not necessarily be forced to bear the cost of training workers in a portable skill when you can just bring in non-local labor (H1B). Back to the Scuba shop example: it costs 5 figures and 6+ months to train a non-diver to the level of scuba instructor. It is good for the labor pool to force the shop to train a new instructor, even if they have to pay a massive cost for them to get certified, and the labor can quit the day they get certified. It is bad for consumers and the shop. They would much rather pay lower prices and bring in a foreign instructor than run short handed for months while they plow money into training someone in a skill that the worker can take to their competition. My feeling is that H1Bs are probably useful in much more limited circumstances than they are used in now (probably something more like O-1 visas that are given for people who are leaders in their fields, or demonstrably and uniquely talented). If the H1B job can be done interchangeably, then it should be done by domestic labor. If you want to hire the one guy who just won a nobel prize to work on your time machine, that is when we should allow foreign labor.

maxerickson 1y ago

The pie grows guy, it isn't zero sum.