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I am sorry you experience antisemitism, this bs should have disappeared long long long ago. > As with pretty much all war I'm disgusted by what Israel is doing

by ath3nd 1y ago

I am sorry you experience antisemitism, this bs should have disappeared long long long ago. > As with pretty much all war I'm disgusted by what Israel is doing We are too! The same way we decried the despicable genocidal actions Germany did on the Jewish population during WW2, we now decry the despicable genocidal actions of the state of Israel on the population of Palestine. > (neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis will wake up suddenly and say "Oh, HN has decided we're to blame; I guess we'll call the whole thing off" Only one side is actually doing genocide at the moment, and that's Israel. Israel should stop the genocide and either engage in a war without war crimes, or better yet, stop annexing foreign territories and stop the war altogether. I appreciate your "there are two sides to every conflict" point, but there is only one side currently shooting at civilians at aid sites, stopping food from reaching the civilian population, and killing journalists.

HDThoreaun 1y ago
> stop annexing foreign territories Gaza is not a foreign territory. It is part of israel. Israel won it over the course of a series of wars that they won in the last century. Almost all of which were not started by the israelis. If the gazans wanted sovereignty they shouldnt have started and lost so many wars. Losing has consequences. > there is only one side currently shooting at civilians The only reason the gazans are not doing this is because they are utterly incompetent, they cant. I dont see how that gives them the moral high ground. As soon as they gain the ability to shoot israeli civilians they will begin to do so again. Both sides are led by truly despicable governments, no one has any amount of moral high ground in this conflict imo.
- text0404 1y ago
  > The only reason the gazans are not doing this is because they are utterly incompetent, they cant. I dont see how that gives them the moral high ground. As soon as they gain the ability to shoot israeli civilians they will begin to do so again. using dehumanizing/racist language as a defense for war crimes unfortunately doesn't fly at The Hague.
  - HDThoreaun 1y ago
    Not racist to point out the government in gaza has over and over and over and over and over and over again shown they will never stop until israel no longer exists. The israelis are lucky Hamas is so incompetent, oct. 7th couldve been much worse. The hague is a joke unfortunately, otherwise Hamas wouldve been dismantled long ago.
    - text0404 1y ago
      that's interesting because the government of israel has over and over and over and over and over and over again shown they will never stop until palestinians no longer exist. and that's the same justification they use! you should ask Israelis if they feel like Oct 7 was a display of incompetence.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - unethical_ban 1y ago
      Counterpoint: As I understand it, t was Israeli military incompetence and Netanyahu's strategy of backing Hamas over the PA that caused Oct 7. Oct 7 will never happen again because it shouldn't have been able to happen in the first place had Israel been less busy fomenting Palestinian extremism in Gaza, and beating/killing Palestinians in the West Bank. There is no justification for the conditions in Gaza today. All I see are Israelis relishing in the suffering of another group of people. And I see Israeli extremists continuing to conflate Israeli Nationalism with Judaism, so that any criticism of Israel is called anti-Semitic.
      - HDThoreaun 1y ago
        > Israeli military incompetence and Netanyahu's strategy of backing Hamas over the PA that caused Oct 7. I was about to make a joke about this to your sibling comment. Completely agree that oct 7 was one of the biggest security fuck ups in modern history, the militants never shouldve been allowed to escape gaza. There is no defending Israel's actions over the last year. I just hate seeing people hitting the wrong points. The lopsided death count is irrelevant because it is Hamas' fault. The annexation of gaza is irrelevant because thats what happens when you lose a war you started. Now starving them out and running them over Tiananmen square style, thats pretty relevant I think. Israels actions in the west bank were in many ways even worse until the starvation stuff started. Straight up state sanctioned terrorism happening over there
camgunz 1y ago
> I appreciate your "there are two sides to every conflict" point Nope, deliberately not saying this. I super don't care what the "whose fault is this" tally is. I'm only interested in saving lives and figuring out what's next. The (awful) truth of this is there are no realistic good options. We're not invading, Israel won't allow UN peacekeepers in, surrounding Arab states can't challenge Israel militarily and/or don't want to aid the Palestinians, there is no political will in any country to send troops, and Israel doesn't actually need our support militarily or otherwise so we have no leverage anyway. So, either a given person's naive to this and they have reading to do, or they're aware and using the situation to further their own ends. Maybe that's anti-Semitic propaganda from some Muslim states (Iran). Maybe that's Russian (et al) disinformation ops driving political wedges into the Democratic Party. Maybe it's the DSA demagoguing the issue to (try to) win elections. Maybe that's committed anti-Semites carpeing those diems. All pretty reprehensible; all getting a flag from me. How can I tell? I listen to upstream sources and recognize the talking points. Also I'm not Jewish! I do have family down the block from where Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh was shot up though, plus a fair number of Jewish friends. Appreciate the sentiment though.
- ath3nd 1y ago
  > The (awful) truth of this is there are no realistic good options. There are. Israel stopping the genocide and building settlements in foreign territories that don't belong to them is a realistic good option. Do you have something against Israel stopping the genocide it does on Palestine? What's the difficulty to stop shooting people at aid sites and allowing humanitary aid to enter the country? Or is it very difficult to not snipe journalists and bomb hospitals? > All pretty reprehensible; all getting a flag from me. How can I tell? I listen to upstream sources and recognize the talking points. Lots of words, yeah war is terrible, yeah reprehensible acts on both sides, yeah the issue is complex. But here are simple facts: Israel is committing a genocide to the Palestinian population at this very moment. Undeniable. It's not complex to not do genocide, many of us succeed in avoiding to do a genocide on a daily basis. Today I and many other people across the globe didn't participate in a genocide, for example!
  - camgunz 1y ago

by ath3nd 1y ago

HDThoreaun 1y ago

> stop annexing foreign territories Gaza is not a foreign territory. It is part of israel. Israel won it over the course of a series of wars that they won in the last century. Almost all of which were not started by the israelis. If the gazans wanted sovereignty they shouldnt have started and lost so many wars. Losing has consequences. > there is only one side currently shooting at civilians The only reason the gazans are not doing this is because they are utterly incompetent, they cant. I dont see how that gives them the moral high ground. As soon as they gain the ability to shoot israeli civilians they will begin to do so again. Both sides are led by truly despicable governments, no one has any amount of moral high ground in this conflict imo.

text0404 1y ago
> The only reason the gazans are not doing this is because they are utterly incompetent, they cant. I dont see how that gives them the moral high ground. As soon as they gain the ability to shoot israeli civilians they will begin to do so again. using dehumanizing/racist language as a defense for war crimes unfortunately doesn't fly at The Hague.
- HDThoreaun 1y ago
  Not racist to point out the government in gaza has over and over and over and over and over and over again shown they will never stop until israel no longer exists. The israelis are lucky Hamas is so incompetent, oct. 7th couldve been much worse. The hague is a joke unfortunately, otherwise Hamas wouldve been dismantled long ago.
  - text0404 1y ago
    that's interesting because the government of israel has over and over and over and over and over and over again shown they will never stop until palestinians no longer exist. and that's the same justification they use! you should ask Israelis if they feel like Oct 7 was a display of incompetence.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - unethical_ban 1y ago
    Counterpoint: As I understand it, t was Israeli military incompetence and Netanyahu's strategy of backing Hamas over the PA that caused Oct 7. Oct 7 will never happen again because it shouldn't have been able to happen in the first place had Israel been less busy fomenting Palestinian extremism in Gaza, and beating/killing Palestinians in the West Bank. There is no justification for the conditions in Gaza today. All I see are Israelis relishing in the suffering of another group of people. And I see Israeli extremists continuing to conflate Israeli Nationalism with Judaism, so that any criticism of Israel is called anti-Semitic.
    - HDThoreaun 1y ago
      > Israeli military incompetence and Netanyahu's strategy of backing Hamas over the PA that caused Oct 7. I was about to make a joke about this to your sibling comment. Completely agree that oct 7 was one of the biggest security fuck ups in modern history, the militants never shouldve been allowed to escape gaza. There is no defending Israel's actions over the last year. I just hate seeing people hitting the wrong points. The lopsided death count is irrelevant because it is Hamas' fault. The annexation of gaza is irrelevant because thats what happens when you lose a war you started. Now starving them out and running them over Tiananmen square style, thats pretty relevant I think. Israels actions in the west bank were in many ways even worse until the starvation stuff started. Straight up state sanctioned terrorism happening over there

camgunz 1y ago

> I appreciate your "there are two sides to every conflict" point Nope, deliberately not saying this. I super don't care what the "whose fault is this" tally is. I'm only interested in saving lives and figuring out what's next. The (awful) truth of this is there are no realistic good options. We're not invading, Israel won't allow UN peacekeepers in, surrounding Arab states can't challenge Israel militarily and/or don't want to aid the Palestinians, there is no political will in any country to send troops, and Israel doesn't actually need our support militarily or otherwise so we have no leverage anyway. So, either a given person's naive to this and they have reading to do, or they're aware and using the situation to further their own ends. Maybe that's anti-Semitic propaganda from some Muslim states (Iran). Maybe that's Russian (et al) disinformation ops driving political wedges into the Democratic Party. Maybe it's the DSA demagoguing the issue to (try to) win elections. Maybe that's committed anti-Semites carpeing those diems. All pretty reprehensible; all getting a flag from me. How can I tell? I listen to upstream sources and recognize the talking points. Also I'm not Jewish! I do have family down the block from where Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh was shot up though, plus a fair number of Jewish friends. Appreciate the sentiment though.

ath3nd 1y ago
> The (awful) truth of this is there are no realistic good options. There are. Israel stopping the genocide and building settlements in foreign territories that don't belong to them is a realistic good option. Do you have something against Israel stopping the genocide it does on Palestine? What's the difficulty to stop shooting people at aid sites and allowing humanitary aid to enter the country? Or is it very difficult to not snipe journalists and bomb hospitals? > All pretty reprehensible; all getting a flag from me. How can I tell? I listen to upstream sources and recognize the talking points. Lots of words, yeah war is terrible, yeah reprehensible acts on both sides, yeah the issue is complex. But here are simple facts: Israel is committing a genocide to the Palestinian population at this very moment. Undeniable. It's not complex to not do genocide, many of us succeed in avoiding to do a genocide on a daily basis. Today I and many other people across the globe didn't participate in a genocide, for example!
- camgunz 1y ago