6 ms·

It might be a fad, but the current trend in US public aviation is increasing premium cabins and premium revenue: https://simpleflying.com/why-us-carriers-doubli

by wayne 1y ago

It might be a fad, but the current trend in US public aviation is increasing premium cabins and premium revenue: https://simpleflying.com/why-us-carriers-doubling-down-premium-cabins/ https://simpleflying.com/why-us-carriers-doubling-down-premi... This is the reason Delta and United and doing well right now and Southwest and the LCCs are struggling. It wasn't true just a few years ago, but if this continues as a trend, I could see an airline sacrificing fuel efficiency for a dramatically improved onboard experience.

notahacker 1y ago
Premium cabins tend to be a very small proportion of overall seats and are about overcharging for a little extra legroom and service rather than trading off operational flexibility for unique luxury though. Big difference between charging 3x economy rates for 2x the space for a carefully estimated proportion of seats in a mixed configuration (no brainer) and hoping your layout is so good it justifies thirstier, less flexible aircraft to operators (tough sell)... That said, Boom's customers - if they ever exist - will be a new business class pay extra for supersonic flights category anyway.
- bombcar 1y ago
  But that's just it - the airlines have finally (lol) realized that a huge price "Delta" (lolx2) between normal cattle class and first class was a mistake. People aren't usually paying 4x for first, but they will pay $10 more for Y, $30 for Z, etc. The future of airlines is fully adjustable planes!
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Premium cabins tend to be a very small proportion of overall seats Most of the profit on a plane is made in business class. If airlines could fly an all-business configuration, they would. The problem is the smallest planes that can do high-paying routes like LON-NYC are bigger than that customer set. So the airline throws in economy seats, often barely breaking even on those, to fill space. In a world with small airliner planes that can make those transoceanic and transcontinental journeys, I suspect we’ll see more all-business class flights.
  - awhitby 1y ago
    Another factor in this mix is frequency, which matters a lot, especially to business travellers. A once-daily supersonic flight might minimize “time in the air” while a once hourly mostly-economy 737 shuttle minimises “time away from home.”
  - jazzyjackson 1y ago
    There is one airline that flies all business class. An A321Neo with 76 lie-flat seats, NYC to Paris/Nice/Milan. Random date selection yields $2700 one-way New York to Paris. https://www.lacompagnie.com/en/about/services https://www.lacompagnie.com/en/about/services
    - ivandenysov 1y ago
      British Airways operated a similar flight between 2009 and 2020: an A318 between LON and NYC with 32 lie-flat seats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_World_London_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_World_London_City
  - notahacker 1y ago
    Smaller jet aircraft on the same route generally means relatively expensive operating costs: some costs like landing slots and pilots are essentially fixed, whilst others like maintenance, fuel and capital costs don't scale down linearly. The marginal profit on an individual economy class seat might be small, but 100+ of them cover a large portion of the fixed and semi-fixed costs of operating the aircraft, and are relatively easy to fill. Long range business jets which can comfortably accommodate a typical narrowbody business class cabin exist: nobody is certifying them for all-business class scheduled flights because it wouldn't be profitable to do so; likewise the all-premium 32 seat A318 configuration hasn't been adopted anywhere except the NYC/LON route it didn't really have the range for because it wouldn't be profitable elsewhere. Boom's bet is that supersonic changes that.
    - FireBeyond 1y ago
      > some costs like landing slots Small detail: most landing slot costs are variable based on aircraft weight.
- jgalt212 1y ago
  Business Class trades well above 3X tourist class.
  - chronia739 1y ago
    > Business Class trades well above 3X tourist class. If you are a tourist searching business class on Google Flights, of course it’s 5-6x more expensive. True business class / upper class travelers get discounts of 20-50% for J. And no, they’re not using Amex/Chase Travel.
    - JoshTriplett 1y ago
      > True business class / upper class travelers get discounts of 20-50% for J. And no, they’re not using Amex/Chase Travel. What are they using, then?
      - everfrustrated 1y ago
        Corporate discounts
        FireBeyond 1y ago
        Huh. Where? I work for a company that's not a FAANG but $200B market cap, and what we get through Concur, Spotnana is at most, 5, occasionally 10% below what I see for the same fare class on Expedia. I have never seen anything approaching 20% cheaper, let alone 50%.
sandworm101 1y ago
It isnt a trend. This is marketing. Thirty years ago, the a380 was pitched as having room for luxury too. The new plane is always going to have more legroom, wider aisles and better air conditioning than anything before. But it never happens. The pitch to actual operators is the square-feet of floorspace and how many seats can be crammed into that space at given price points. Just like concord, this thing only makes sense with quazi-economy seating. Do not expect to nap on a nice lie-flat seat.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > It isnt a trend. This is marketing They’re citing historic data. It absolutely is a trend that premium travel is an increasing slice of post-Covid American air travel.

by wayne 1y ago

notahacker 1y ago

Premium cabins tend to be a very small proportion of overall seats and are about overcharging for a little extra legroom and service rather than trading off operational flexibility for unique luxury though. Big difference between charging 3x economy rates for 2x the space for a carefully estimated proportion of seats in a mixed configuration (no brainer) and hoping your layout is so good it justifies thirstier, less flexible aircraft to operators (tough sell)... That said, Boom's customers - if they ever exist - will be a new business class pay extra for supersonic flights category anyway.

bombcar 1y ago
But that's just it - the airlines have finally (lol) realized that a huge price "Delta" (lolx2) between normal cattle class and first class was a mistake. People aren't usually paying 4x for first, but they will pay $10 more for Y, $30 for Z, etc. The future of airlines is fully adjustable planes!
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Premium cabins tend to be a very small proportion of overall seats Most of the profit on a plane is made in business class. If airlines could fly an all-business configuration, they would. The problem is the smallest planes that can do high-paying routes like LON-NYC are bigger than that customer set. So the airline throws in economy seats, often barely breaking even on those, to fill space. In a world with small airliner planes that can make those transoceanic and transcontinental journeys, I suspect we’ll see more all-business class flights.
- awhitby 1y ago
  Another factor in this mix is frequency, which matters a lot, especially to business travellers. A once-daily supersonic flight might minimize “time in the air” while a once hourly mostly-economy 737 shuttle minimises “time away from home.”
- jazzyjackson 1y ago
  There is one airline that flies all business class. An A321Neo with 76 lie-flat seats, NYC to Paris/Nice/Milan. Random date selection yields $2700 one-way New York to Paris. https://www.lacompagnie.com/en/about/services https://www.lacompagnie.com/en/about/services
  - ivandenysov 1y ago
    British Airways operated a similar flight between 2009 and 2020: an A318 between LON and NYC with 32 lie-flat seats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_World_London_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_World_London_City
- notahacker 1y ago
  Smaller jet aircraft on the same route generally means relatively expensive operating costs: some costs like landing slots and pilots are essentially fixed, whilst others like maintenance, fuel and capital costs don't scale down linearly. The marginal profit on an individual economy class seat might be small, but 100+ of them cover a large portion of the fixed and semi-fixed costs of operating the aircraft, and are relatively easy to fill. Long range business jets which can comfortably accommodate a typical narrowbody business class cabin exist: nobody is certifying them for all-business class scheduled flights because it wouldn't be profitable to do so; likewise the all-premium 32 seat A318 configuration hasn't been adopted anywhere except the NYC/LON route it didn't really have the range for because it wouldn't be profitable elsewhere. Boom's bet is that supersonic changes that.
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    > some costs like landing slots Small detail: most landing slot costs are variable based on aircraft weight.
jgalt212 1y ago
Business Class trades well above 3X tourist class.
- chronia739 1y ago
  > Business Class trades well above 3X tourist class. If you are a tourist searching business class on Google Flights, of course it’s 5-6x more expensive. True business class / upper class travelers get discounts of 20-50% for J. And no, they’re not using Amex/Chase Travel.
  - JoshTriplett 1y ago
    > True business class / upper class travelers get discounts of 20-50% for J. And no, they’re not using Amex/Chase Travel. What are they using, then?
    - everfrustrated 1y ago
      Corporate discounts
      - FireBeyond 1y ago
        Huh. Where? I work for a company that's not a FAANG but $200B market cap, and what we get through Concur, Spotnana is at most, 5, occasionally 10% below what I see for the same fare class on Expedia. I have never seen anything approaching 20% cheaper, let alone 50%.

sandworm101 1y ago

It isnt a trend. This is marketing. Thirty years ago, the a380 was pitched as having room for luxury too. The new plane is always going to have more legroom, wider aisles and better air conditioning than anything before. But it never happens. The pitch to actual operators is the square-feet of floorspace and how many seats can be crammed into that space at given price points. Just like concord, this thing only makes sense with quazi-economy seating. Do not expect to nap on a nice lie-flat seat.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> It isnt a trend. This is marketing They’re citing historic data. It absolutely is a trend that premium travel is an increasing slice of post-Covid American air travel.