9 ms·

CPS investigated her 4 times because she let her kids play outside

93 points by leephillips 1y ago

ctenb 1y ago
Is this story fiction or non-fiction? It seems utterly absurd
- ActorNightly 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - bobthepanda 1y ago
    Small government (for me) and big government for thee.
    - ratelimitsteve 1y ago
      "A government so small I can drown it in the bathtub" has become "a government so small I can keep it in my pocket and throw it at anyone who upsets me"
    - ActorNightly 1y ago
      Funny how you talk small about small government, meanwhile the current administration has shown that it has no problem in going full authoritarian, ignoring the law. But that is not a problem because you personally aren't affected. This example in the OP post aligns pretty clearly with conservatives encroaching on other peoples freedoms. Also in general, given the Epstein stuff, you basically lost any sort of right to talk about what is good politically considering you actively support child molestation.
      - bobthepanda 1y ago
        I meant that as a criticism of the small government types. I am not one.
  - glitchc 1y ago
    And Orange County is Kamalaland. Is everything political for you?
    - ta1243 1y ago
      Do you think this type of behaviour not political? Do you think politics is just some people coming out with soundbites on infotainment channels or talking in congress?
    - ActorNightly 1y ago
      Its not about what is right politically, its about the quality of the moral character of conservatives. It should be pretty clear at this point that if Trump came out and admitted to his actions with underage kids at Epstein's parties, his approval rating wouldn't even drop that much. Which just shows that the majority of modern conservatives are perfectly with child molestation. So its probably not far off to say that those people are somewhat mentally ill.
      - glitchc 1y ago
        This moral zealotry in the absence of any evidence just goes to show how Democrats believe in dogma, not facts. Let me provide you with a source [1]. You'll be pleased to know that conservatives do not have a monopoly on child molestation. Some of the highest number of cases are in Maine, Massachusetts, New Mexico and Oregon, all firmly on the left. [1] https://nyrequirements.com/blog/which_us_states_have_the_highest_rates_of_child_abuse_cases https://nyrequirements.com/blog/which_us_states_have_the_hig...
        ActorNightly 1y ago
        This is inescapable for you. Democrats are completely irrelevant in this case. If you agree that child molestation is bad, then you have to agree that the modern conservative leadership and all the people that vote for them are also bad. If you don't agree... well we don't need to talk about that.
- chuckadams 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - SilverElfin 1y ago
    Reason is pretty neutral and factual in my experience. They do have an ideological stance that affects which stories they cover, which is a focus on protecting people’s rights (individuals) and minimizing abuse by governments or corporations. Personally I don’t have a problem with biasing towards individual rights, or at least I appreciate that someone covers these things, as long as they’re doing so at a high quality.
    - deleted 1y ago
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    - deleted 1y ago
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    - staticman2 1y ago
      Clicking around for a bit I certainly wouldn't call their article positively reporting on a proposal to eliminate social security neutral and factual.
rokkamokka 1y ago
Pure insanity. A world where children cannot be independent is a world where they never learn to be independent.
epiccoleman 1y ago
These kinds of stories are truly wild to me - my kids are pretty much free range and have been since they were 7 or 8. We've never had an issue. That said though, it's easy to imagine how quickly things could become problematic if some busybody decided they wanted to make trouble. You do not want CPS involved with your family - full stop. I don't really know what the right thing to do is if you do have CPS show up - at first blush it seems like a "never talk to the police" type of situation where hypothetically the right play is to absolutely refuse to play ball and involve a lawyer immediately. It's a whole can of worms to take that stand though. Do you just let Umbridge into your house and hope that the quick look around is enough to close the case? Or do you recognize you're dealing with an Umbridge and not take the chance? That kind of tough call for parents probably does mean that the right play is to try to ensure your state has reasonable legislation about these sorts of things. (what a drag!)
- bombcar 1y ago
  You have to decide if you think that (in general) they're "good with some bad apples" or "the whole thing is rotten to the core". If it's the first, on first contact you assume they're generally good-willed, and play the part of the concerned parent, and find something obvious and physical that can be added and verified (a fence, say, or a lock, or alarm, depending on what occurred). Try to sus out how the report occurred. If it's the second, move. Move out of their district or out of their state. You're already fucked, so your best option is to run.
- soco 1y ago
  There's a similar institution in Switzerland - the KESB - and it has its own horror stories. It's a matter of canton and of persons involved, but you get from their activity the whole range: from perfect and ideal support (which is of course the very reason KESB exists) to mafia-style trafficking (kids are systematically placed away by the same persons, to cash in government payments). Such an institution needs both professional and judiciary supervision in order to not depend on one individual's ethics - and KESB has neither.
- alphazard 1y ago
  > Do you just let Umbridge into your house and hope that the quick look around is enough to close the case? Or do you recognize you're dealing with an Umbridge and not take the chance? In the US at least, you absolutely do not give consent for anyone from the government to come into your house. It can only hurt you. Call the police and tell them someone is trespassing. Call your lawyer and explain the situation. Children should know it is inappropriate for adults they don't know to ask for details about their home life. Any adult acting in good faith will always make it easier for a child to contact their parents without negotiation. "Yes you can use my phone" is the only acceptable response. No "come over here first", no "let's talk about where your parents are".
hermannj314 1y ago
Protective services helps kids get out of horrible situations and then grows tentacles to justify its existence when there aren't that many kids in horrible situations. As a former foster parent, I was appaled and disgusted by how CPS works and how every social worker, guardian ad litem, law enforcement officer seemed more obsessed with maintaining a slow moving cash cow bureaucracy than actually building a system that helps kids. They then use "but we are helping kids get out of horrible situations" as a shield to avoid any scrutnity or condemnation of the inefficient, ineffective leviathian of greed they participate in.
- jvanderbot 1y ago
  The foster agencies are the worst. They take 3/4 the state funding per child. But AFAICT, CPS was very slow to become engaged, and always focused on giving the child back to the parent as soon as possible. So many familes get into foster care thinking they can save a child and adopt them as the defacto path. That is very much not the case, you are state sponsored babysitters.
  - hermannj314 1y ago
    State sponsored babysitters? Correct, the kid we were babysitting had an ear infection and we need parent authorization to adminster medicine. A simple phone call? Nope. The system require a lawyer, CPS, and several weeks delay at which point the kid didnt need the medicine, but we babysitter got to stay up every night for those two weeks listen to a kid cry we legally couldnt give medicine to. We had no intention to adopt, we only wanted reconcilliation and to help kids. You seem to have a bone to pick with foster parents since you were quick to judge me and my wife's intentions. We were glorified babysitters. Shitty, piece of shit babysitters apprently. I am glad we arent involved in that cluster fuck system anymore.
    - jvanderbot 1y ago
      Don't project - I had no bone to pick at all. CPS is hard to deal with because they're walking a thin line between blocking out parents and keeping kids safe from parents. And there's litigation minefields on either side. It's really the parents' game to lose, in most cases, as they have tons of rights and leeway.
jimt1234 1y ago
CPS is a joke: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381801
- mitthrowaway2 1y ago
  That doesn't seem like a joke to me!
- jimt1234 1y ago
  Also, my friend told me that CPS (in California) is required to investigate every call they receive, regardless of how lame it is. In fact, she said the most common calls they received are from disgruntled exes, weaponizing CPS to launch obviously bogus investigations on their former partner.
dardeaup 1y ago
It seems the CPS folks need to dial down their knee-jerk reactions a bit. Some people will still complain to them with both legitimate and non-legitimate claims. CPS folks need some training on knowing the difference.
jvanderbot 1y ago
Not saying this is the case, but sometimes, if CPS is involved in an inane-sounding investigation, it's because they were involved before in a less-inane investigation. A person with a history of neglect can _say_ they were adopting a free range parenting style, but if they had a kid die in a hot car two years ago, you can understand how CPS would watch more closely. I saw an article floating around about a couple that were prosecuted for letting their child cross a street alone to go to a store, but it was actually a highway and one of their other kids had died on that highway a few years ago. Having been involved in the foster care system before, I can tell you, no parent believes they were doing anything wrong, ever. They almost all exclusively believe they were being unfairly targeted for past transgressions or unfair accusations. That happens, but given how everyone says that, it's not a good signal. Yes, this may not be the case in this article, or even in most cases, but it is something to consider about human nature.
- bobthepanda 1y ago
  Is that the fault of the parent, or is the state trying to cover up incredibly bad transportation and land use planning? Kids should just be able to walk to stores without getting hit by cars. It is basically crazy how car obsession has turned America into such an unsafe place for children, and the statistics show it; > In 1969, 48 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school. In 2009, 13 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school. http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_walking_and_bicycling.cfm http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_...
  - porridgeraisin 1y ago
    Is that stat accounting for distance to school? I.e is it comparing within the same distances(ranges of)?
    - estearum 1y ago
      You’re describing the same problem. The distance is the issue. This is the result of decisions we’ve made and that we can unmake.
qualeed 1y ago
>During that visit, I was told that children could never be left alone, inside or outside the home—EVEN IN THEIR OWN BEDROOMS—until they were 13 years old. Social Services said specifically that I had to be in each room with them at all times until they were 13. This must be a mistake from the CPS agent, surely? For one, it's obviously absurd (you'd get a CPS call if they found out you were "supervising" your 12 year old in the bathroom or while changing), but secondly (and I might be mistaken), in most places I've looked at/known people/lived in, you are allowed to privately babysit at the age of 12. In any case, this whole thing is a bit too rage-inducing for a Monday morning read.
- alpaca128 1y ago
  Also it sounds a bit challenging to be in multiple rooms at once and without sleep.
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  No it’s not a mistake. Search social media and you’ll find lots of reports like these. CPS will create absurd and unrealistic rules like the ones you name, specifically because they know no parent will meet those standards and it lets them get involved. If they bring police, the police will simply back up their rules even though they know it’s absurd. The type of people who work in CPS are often unhinged types already, and they do this to justify their existence on the taxpayer’s dime. Just remember you don’t need to talk to them or let them into your home. Anything you say or they see is evidence they can use against you. Force them to go get a court order or warrant.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    Government as an institution suffers from the same staffing problem that homelessness does. The good ones are up and out.
  - jimt1234 1y ago
    > Just remember you don’t need to talk to them or let them into your home. Unfortunately, not in California: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381801
_1tem 1y ago
This story sounds like Soviet bureaucracy on its last legs. Very real impending fall-of-an-empire vibes.
s5300 1y ago
The best and only reasonable thing you can do to people that endanger or attempt to arrest the development of your children is to dispose of them. Calling CPS for anything but the absolute worst of cases is like telling somebody you want their kids to experience both prison rape and homelessness at the same time (this is essentially what foster kids where I’m from typically went through) If somebody is doing it just to fuck with you or because they have some grudge against you, I don’t really know any real thing to do other than dispose of them to protect your family.
SilverElfin 1y ago
This isn’t the only such instance. There have been other people who were victims of invasive CPS for kids playing in their own yard, on their own street, walking to school, biking around town, or whatever. Parents these days are fearful to an unhealthy degree to begin with, but having to deal with CPS, who may subject you to repeated visits and bureaucratic reports or at worst take your kids away, is making the parents have even more fear of giving kids the slightest independence or hint of a real childhood. Remember if CPS shows up at your door, you don’t need to talk to them. You can tell them firmly to get off your property and to not return. If they insist, record them, tell them to identify themselves with ID, tell them they’re trespassing and you’ll press charges, and to leave. They have no legal right to be there or speak to you without a warrant and a police officer. The point of them making you talk to them is so they can make a big deal out of SOMETHING you say or SOMETHING they see so they can do paperwork that justifies their ability to invade your life. Don’t let them. There are videos on YouTube about how to deal with them.
parsimo2010 1y ago
I have a hard time evaluating articles like this. On one hand, we all know problematic neighbors who have an unrealistic standard of something, whether it be the supervision of kids, the noise of a backyard gathering, yard/fence maintenance, etc. So we are primed to believe that the person in the story is just being unfairly persecuted. Perhaps the neighbors just called the police as soon as they saw the kids without bothering to check if the parents were anywhere nearby. Perhaps the parent was in the bathroom for a minute and the neighbors called the cops on that. On the other hand, it is plausible that the parents were actually negligent and the kids were outside totally unsupervised, and the neighbors tried to find someone watching over the kids before calling the police. I would normally not be suspicious, but statements like, "the next door neighbors were okay with our kids playing in their yards" and, "of course my child is allowed to climb the stairs" feel a little off. Yes, neighbors will often say it is okay for kids to be on their lawns but there is usually an understanding that the parents are aware of what's going on. And it's easy to say that you allow your kids to climb the stairs, but the child in question was less than a year old. I don't know of a parent who wouldn't at least be watching over them on the front porch. So I don't know where I land here. This story, even if true, sounds like a bad parent trying to pass this off as intrusive neighbors and government overreach. Kids can and should be allowed to roam, but there should be some appropriate limits. I experienced this first-hand as a kid. My parents were great and we had awesome families on our street. Most of the time we just roamed to various houses on the street and the parents all knew each other and it was fine. Once we rode our bikes to another town and had to ask a stranger to use their phone because we got lost- this was probably not okay, but our parents picked us up and things turned out okay. But notably, we did not get CPS called on us multiple times.
- cycomanic 1y ago
  It seems like you are taking a lot of effort to create an alternative narrative. It said nowhere that the 18month year old was not supervised, in fact if that was the case why complain about the climbing stairs and not the child being unsupervised? Regarding the neighbors allowing the children to use their yard? You did notice that the letter writer points out that it was not the neighbors who own the backyard who were complaining, so why are you creating a narrative that it was their understanding that the kids would be supervised? In my experience the stories about strangers telling the kids what they can or cannot do (as a European not part that these people would be taken seriously by cps though) seem entirely plausible both from experiences from my childhood and experiences as a parent. There are lots of people who seem to enjoy bossing kids around. It often gets worse when kids are articulate and insist on their rights. Some people get downright aggressive if a child or teenager isn't immediately submissive.
ratelimitsteve 1y ago
The part where CPS told this person that they have to be in the room supervising each of their kids at all times even in their own bedrooms is delightfully kafkaesque. It sounds an awful lot like permission to arrest any parent or guardian at any time for alleged failure to supervise because sending your kids to bed in separate bedrooms or going to bed yourself is now legally neglect.
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Kapura 1y ago
i came in here on the side of child independance, but the youngest ages involved were a lot younger than i'm comfortable with. frankly, i think that if a kid is under 4 years old, there should be an adult near-at-hand.
- sealthedeal 1y ago
  I agree. I for one was riding my bike all around the neighborhood as a kid, going everywhere. I guess starting in 1st grade it was walking around apartment complex and then we got. a house in 2nd grade, and probably 3rd grade we were off on our bikes with "boundaries" our parents said we couldn't go past. A 4 year old, hell even a 6/7 year old I just couldn't trust to make a proper decision, even with older siblings around. Also, the way this article reads, this lady just seems like a pain in the a* and clearly her neighbors do not like her. The best bet is for them to move...
fencepost 1y ago
She was immediately upset that they were talking back to her and asked if she was going to have to "call the police and get your parents in trouble." This obviously scared the children, and they began to walk home, in tears. Meanwhile, I was standing at the kitchen window watching the kids talk to a neighbor, not understanding what was happening until I saw one child visibly upset. I immediately walked out of the house, and the neighbor (who, coincidentally, is a social worker) drove off without speaking to me about her concerns. At that point I'd be approaching both the police and this 'social worker's' employer and complaining about her threatening my children.
pjmlp 1y ago
From European point of view I cannot understand how bad things have gone in US. To the point there are stand up comedians talking about remembering being kids during the 70's and 80's.
sealthedeal 1y ago
Just reading it, I am a bit confused. I was a free range kid starting in about 1st grade. We had boundaries, but let's be honest, little boys push the limits. Now im in my mid 30s and have my third daughter on the way. I would never let my kids go play outside in the front yard unsupervised, just for the simple fact that I don't want them getting hit by a car, the oldest is 6, and understands things, but still, that just seems neglectful. It could be because they are girls, and im more protective, but I also just generally gauge a Childs "readiness", and I don't know many 6 year olds that I would be comfortable going to explore my neighborhood without some form of supervision. I also generally despise the use of CPS in this way, but from what I gather, this lady seems like a pain in the a*, and her neighbors clearly do not like her, for whatever reason it is. It doesn't mean they should get CPS involved, but it's honestly shocking that this lady would continue to live in a place like this, it's pretty unreal actually. Not sure what to make of all of this, and it reads like a very one sided piece, would be interesting to hear all the other drama that led to all of this transpiring.
- qualeed 1y ago
  >but from what I gather, this lady seems like a pain in the a I didn't get this impression at all, why do you think the lady is a pain in the ass..?
comrade1234 1y ago
You're not even allowed to bring your kids to school here in Switzerland. They have to get there on their own. Parents don't intervene in playground fights either - it's lord of the flies here.
- em-bee 1y ago
  in germany a couple just lost a lawsuit against their city where the they demanded to reinstate a bus service which was closed by the city that their 7 year old had been using. the judge ruled that a 7 year old can take a train alone to go to school.
theturtle 1y ago
Little kids, or more specifically, having them, is a major way for self-important strangers to get in your shit when they have no legal right to. Plaudits to New York, which no longer accepts anonymous complaints due to their massive abuse by exes and busybodies for minimal positive result. I did not actually know Virginia actually did something useful for once (probably didn't notice because I have no children and no interest in them).

93 points by leephillips 1y ago

ctenb 1y ago

Is this story fiction or non-fiction? It seems utterly absurd

ActorNightly 1y ago
[flagged]
- bobthepanda 1y ago
  Small government (for me) and big government for thee.
  - ratelimitsteve 1y ago
    "A government so small I can drown it in the bathtub" has become "a government so small I can keep it in my pocket and throw it at anyone who upsets me"
  - ActorNightly 1y ago
    Funny how you talk small about small government, meanwhile the current administration has shown that it has no problem in going full authoritarian, ignoring the law. But that is not a problem because you personally aren't affected. This example in the OP post aligns pretty clearly with conservatives encroaching on other peoples freedoms. Also in general, given the Epstein stuff, you basically lost any sort of right to talk about what is good politically considering you actively support child molestation.
    - bobthepanda 1y ago
      I meant that as a criticism of the small government types. I am not one.
- glitchc 1y ago
  And Orange County is Kamalaland. Is everything political for you?
  - ta1243 1y ago
    Do you think this type of behaviour not political? Do you think politics is just some people coming out with soundbites on infotainment channels or talking in congress?
  - ActorNightly 1y ago
    Its not about what is right politically, its about the quality of the moral character of conservatives. It should be pretty clear at this point that if Trump came out and admitted to his actions with underage kids at Epstein's parties, his approval rating wouldn't even drop that much. Which just shows that the majority of modern conservatives are perfectly with child molestation. So its probably not far off to say that those people are somewhat mentally ill.
    - glitchc 1y ago
      This moral zealotry in the absence of any evidence just goes to show how Democrats believe in dogma, not facts. Let me provide you with a source [1]. You'll be pleased to know that conservatives do not have a monopoly on child molestation. Some of the highest number of cases are in Maine, Massachusetts, New Mexico and Oregon, all firmly on the left. [1] https://nyrequirements.com/blog/which_us_states_have_the_highest_rates_of_child_abuse_cases https://nyrequirements.com/blog/which_us_states_have_the_hig...
      - ActorNightly 1y ago
        This is inescapable for you. Democrats are completely irrelevant in this case. If you agree that child molestation is bad, then you have to agree that the modern conservative leadership and all the people that vote for them are also bad. If you don't agree... well we don't need to talk about that.
chuckadams 1y ago
[flagged]
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  Reason is pretty neutral and factual in my experience. They do have an ideological stance that affects which stories they cover, which is a focus on protecting people’s rights (individuals) and minimizing abuse by governments or corporations. Personally I don’t have a problem with biasing towards individual rights, or at least I appreciate that someone covers these things, as long as they’re doing so at a high quality.
  - deleted 1y ago
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  - deleted 1y ago
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  - staticman2 1y ago
    Clicking around for a bit I certainly wouldn't call their article positively reporting on a proposal to eliminate social security neutral and factual.

rokkamokka 1y ago

Pure insanity. A world where children cannot be independent is a world where they never learn to be independent.

epiccoleman 1y ago

These kinds of stories are truly wild to me - my kids are pretty much free range and have been since they were 7 or 8. We've never had an issue. That said though, it's easy to imagine how quickly things could become problematic if some busybody decided they wanted to make trouble. You do not want CPS involved with your family - full stop. I don't really know what the right thing to do is if you do have CPS show up - at first blush it seems like a "never talk to the police" type of situation where hypothetically the right play is to absolutely refuse to play ball and involve a lawyer immediately. It's a whole can of worms to take that stand though. Do you just let Umbridge into your house and hope that the quick look around is enough to close the case? Or do you recognize you're dealing with an Umbridge and not take the chance? That kind of tough call for parents probably does mean that the right play is to try to ensure your state has reasonable legislation about these sorts of things. (what a drag!)

bombcar 1y ago
You have to decide if you think that (in general) they're "good with some bad apples" or "the whole thing is rotten to the core". If it's the first, on first contact you assume they're generally good-willed, and play the part of the concerned parent, and find something obvious and physical that can be added and verified (a fence, say, or a lock, or alarm, depending on what occurred). Try to sus out how the report occurred. If it's the second, move. Move out of their district or out of their state. You're already fucked, so your best option is to run.
soco 1y ago
There's a similar institution in Switzerland - the KESB - and it has its own horror stories. It's a matter of canton and of persons involved, but you get from their activity the whole range: from perfect and ideal support (which is of course the very reason KESB exists) to mafia-style trafficking (kids are systematically placed away by the same persons, to cash in government payments). Such an institution needs both professional and judiciary supervision in order to not depend on one individual's ethics - and KESB has neither.
alphazard 1y ago
> Do you just let Umbridge into your house and hope that the quick look around is enough to close the case? Or do you recognize you're dealing with an Umbridge and not take the chance? In the US at least, you absolutely do not give consent for anyone from the government to come into your house. It can only hurt you. Call the police and tell them someone is trespassing. Call your lawyer and explain the situation. Children should know it is inappropriate for adults they don't know to ask for details about their home life. Any adult acting in good faith will always make it easier for a child to contact their parents without negotiation. "Yes you can use my phone" is the only acceptable response. No "come over here first", no "let's talk about where your parents are".

hermannj314 1y ago

Protective services helps kids get out of horrible situations and then grows tentacles to justify its existence when there aren't that many kids in horrible situations. As a former foster parent, I was appaled and disgusted by how CPS works and how every social worker, guardian ad litem, law enforcement officer seemed more obsessed with maintaining a slow moving cash cow bureaucracy than actually building a system that helps kids. They then use "but we are helping kids get out of horrible situations" as a shield to avoid any scrutnity or condemnation of the inefficient, ineffective leviathian of greed they participate in.

jvanderbot 1y ago
The foster agencies are the worst. They take 3/4 the state funding per child. But AFAICT, CPS was very slow to become engaged, and always focused on giving the child back to the parent as soon as possible. So many familes get into foster care thinking they can save a child and adopt them as the defacto path. That is very much not the case, you are state sponsored babysitters.
- hermannj314 1y ago
  State sponsored babysitters? Correct, the kid we were babysitting had an ear infection and we need parent authorization to adminster medicine. A simple phone call? Nope. The system require a lawyer, CPS, and several weeks delay at which point the kid didnt need the medicine, but we babysitter got to stay up every night for those two weeks listen to a kid cry we legally couldnt give medicine to. We had no intention to adopt, we only wanted reconcilliation and to help kids. You seem to have a bone to pick with foster parents since you were quick to judge me and my wife's intentions. We were glorified babysitters. Shitty, piece of shit babysitters apprently. I am glad we arent involved in that cluster fuck system anymore.
  - jvanderbot 1y ago
    Don't project - I had no bone to pick at all. CPS is hard to deal with because they're walking a thin line between blocking out parents and keeping kids safe from parents. And there's litigation minefields on either side. It's really the parents' game to lose, in most cases, as they have tons of rights and leeway.

jimt1234 1y ago

CPS is a joke: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381801

mitthrowaway2 1y ago
That doesn't seem like a joke to me!
jimt1234 1y ago
Also, my friend told me that CPS (in California) is required to investigate every call they receive, regardless of how lame it is. In fact, she said the most common calls they received are from disgruntled exes, weaponizing CPS to launch obviously bogus investigations on their former partner.

dardeaup 1y ago

It seems the CPS folks need to dial down their knee-jerk reactions a bit. Some people will still complain to them with both legitimate and non-legitimate claims. CPS folks need some training on knowing the difference.

jvanderbot 1y ago

Not saying this is the case, but sometimes, if CPS is involved in an inane-sounding investigation, it's because they were involved before in a less-inane investigation. A person with a history of neglect can _say_ they were adopting a free range parenting style, but if they had a kid die in a hot car two years ago, you can understand how CPS would watch more closely. I saw an article floating around about a couple that were prosecuted for letting their child cross a street alone to go to a store, but it was actually a highway and one of their other kids had died on that highway a few years ago. Having been involved in the foster care system before, I can tell you, no parent believes they were doing anything wrong, ever. They almost all exclusively believe they were being unfairly targeted for past transgressions or unfair accusations. That happens, but given how everyone says that, it's not a good signal. Yes, this may not be the case in this article, or even in most cases, but it is something to consider about human nature.

bobthepanda 1y ago
Is that the fault of the parent, or is the state trying to cover up incredibly bad transportation and land use planning? Kids should just be able to walk to stores without getting hit by cars. It is basically crazy how car obsession has turned America into such an unsafe place for children, and the statistics show it; > In 1969, 48 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school. In 2009, 13 percent of children 5 to 14 years of age usually walked or bicycled to school. http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_walking_and_bicycling.cfm http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_...
- porridgeraisin 1y ago
  Is that stat accounting for distance to school? I.e is it comparing within the same distances(ranges of)?
  - estearum 1y ago
    You’re describing the same problem. The distance is the issue. This is the result of decisions we’ve made and that we can unmake.

qualeed 1y ago

>During that visit, I was told that children could never be left alone, inside or outside the home—EVEN IN THEIR OWN BEDROOMS—until they were 13 years old. Social Services said specifically that I had to be in each room with them at all times until they were 13. This must be a mistake from the CPS agent, surely? For one, it's obviously absurd (you'd get a CPS call if they found out you were "supervising" your 12 year old in the bathroom or while changing), but secondly (and I might be mistaken), in most places I've looked at/known people/lived in, you are allowed to privately babysit at the age of 12. In any case, this whole thing is a bit too rage-inducing for a Monday morning read.

alpaca128 1y ago
Also it sounds a bit challenging to be in multiple rooms at once and without sleep.
SilverElfin 1y ago
No it’s not a mistake. Search social media and you’ll find lots of reports like these. CPS will create absurd and unrealistic rules like the ones you name, specifically because they know no parent will meet those standards and it lets them get involved. If they bring police, the police will simply back up their rules even though they know it’s absurd. The type of people who work in CPS are often unhinged types already, and they do this to justify their existence on the taxpayer’s dime. Just remember you don’t need to talk to them or let them into your home. Anything you say or they see is evidence they can use against you. Force them to go get a court order or warrant.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  Government as an institution suffers from the same staffing problem that homelessness does. The good ones are up and out.
- jimt1234 1y ago
  > Just remember you don’t need to talk to them or let them into your home. Unfortunately, not in California: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381801

_1tem 1y ago

This story sounds like Soviet bureaucracy on its last legs. Very real impending fall-of-an-empire vibes.

s5300 1y ago

The best and only reasonable thing you can do to people that endanger or attempt to arrest the development of your children is to dispose of them. Calling CPS for anything but the absolute worst of cases is like telling somebody you want their kids to experience both prison rape and homelessness at the same time (this is essentially what foster kids where I’m from typically went through) If somebody is doing it just to fuck with you or because they have some grudge against you, I don’t really know any real thing to do other than dispose of them to protect your family.

SilverElfin 1y ago

This isn’t the only such instance. There have been other people who were victims of invasive CPS for kids playing in their own yard, on their own street, walking to school, biking around town, or whatever. Parents these days are fearful to an unhealthy degree to begin with, but having to deal with CPS, who may subject you to repeated visits and bureaucratic reports or at worst take your kids away, is making the parents have even more fear of giving kids the slightest independence or hint of a real childhood. Remember if CPS shows up at your door, you don’t need to talk to them. You can tell them firmly to get off your property and to not return. If they insist, record them, tell them to identify themselves with ID, tell them they’re trespassing and you’ll press charges, and to leave. They have no legal right to be there or speak to you without a warrant and a police officer. The point of them making you talk to them is so they can make a big deal out of SOMETHING you say or SOMETHING they see so they can do paperwork that justifies their ability to invade your life. Don’t let them. There are videos on YouTube about how to deal with them.

parsimo2010 1y ago

I have a hard time evaluating articles like this. On one hand, we all know problematic neighbors who have an unrealistic standard of something, whether it be the supervision of kids, the noise of a backyard gathering, yard/fence maintenance, etc. So we are primed to believe that the person in the story is just being unfairly persecuted. Perhaps the neighbors just called the police as soon as they saw the kids without bothering to check if the parents were anywhere nearby. Perhaps the parent was in the bathroom for a minute and the neighbors called the cops on that. On the other hand, it is plausible that the parents were actually negligent and the kids were outside totally unsupervised, and the neighbors tried to find someone watching over the kids before calling the police. I would normally not be suspicious, but statements like, "the next door neighbors were okay with our kids playing in their yards" and, "of course my child is allowed to climb the stairs" feel a little off. Yes, neighbors will often say it is okay for kids to be on their lawns but there is usually an understanding that the parents are aware of what's going on. And it's easy to say that you allow your kids to climb the stairs, but the child in question was less than a year old. I don't know of a parent who wouldn't at least be watching over them on the front porch. So I don't know where I land here. This story, even if true, sounds like a bad parent trying to pass this off as intrusive neighbors and government overreach. Kids can and should be allowed to roam, but there should be some appropriate limits. I experienced this first-hand as a kid. My parents were great and we had awesome families on our street. Most of the time we just roamed to various houses on the street and the parents all knew each other and it was fine. Once we rode our bikes to another town and had to ask a stranger to use their phone because we got lost- this was probably not okay, but our parents picked us up and things turned out okay. But notably, we did not get CPS called on us multiple times.

cycomanic 1y ago
It seems like you are taking a lot of effort to create an alternative narrative. It said nowhere that the 18month year old was not supervised, in fact if that was the case why complain about the climbing stairs and not the child being unsupervised? Regarding the neighbors allowing the children to use their yard? You did notice that the letter writer points out that it was not the neighbors who own the backyard who were complaining, so why are you creating a narrative that it was their understanding that the kids would be supervised? In my experience the stories about strangers telling the kids what they can or cannot do (as a European not part that these people would be taken seriously by cps though) seem entirely plausible both from experiences from my childhood and experiences as a parent. There are lots of people who seem to enjoy bossing kids around. It often gets worse when kids are articulate and insist on their rights. Some people get downright aggressive if a child or teenager isn't immediately submissive.

ratelimitsteve 1y ago

The part where CPS told this person that they have to be in the room supervising each of their kids at all times even in their own bedrooms is delightfully kafkaesque. It sounds an awful lot like permission to arrest any parent or guardian at any time for alleged failure to supervise because sending your kids to bed in separate bedrooms or going to bed yourself is now legally neglect.

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Kapura 1y ago

i came in here on the side of child independance, but the youngest ages involved were a lot younger than i'm comfortable with. frankly, i think that if a kid is under 4 years old, there should be an adult near-at-hand.

sealthedeal 1y ago
I agree. I for one was riding my bike all around the neighborhood as a kid, going everywhere. I guess starting in 1st grade it was walking around apartment complex and then we got. a house in 2nd grade, and probably 3rd grade we were off on our bikes with "boundaries" our parents said we couldn't go past. A 4 year old, hell even a 6/7 year old I just couldn't trust to make a proper decision, even with older siblings around. Also, the way this article reads, this lady just seems like a pain in the a* and clearly her neighbors do not like her. The best bet is for them to move...

fencepost 1y ago

She was immediately upset that they were talking back to her and asked if she was going to have to "call the police and get your parents in trouble." This obviously scared the children, and they began to walk home, in tears. Meanwhile, I was standing at the kitchen window watching the kids talk to a neighbor, not understanding what was happening until I saw one child visibly upset. I immediately walked out of the house, and the neighbor (who, coincidentally, is a social worker) drove off without speaking to me about her concerns. At that point I'd be approaching both the police and this 'social worker's' employer and complaining about her threatening my children.

pjmlp 1y ago

From European point of view I cannot understand how bad things have gone in US. To the point there are stand up comedians talking about remembering being kids during the 70's and 80's.

sealthedeal 1y ago

Just reading it, I am a bit confused. I was a free range kid starting in about 1st grade. We had boundaries, but let's be honest, little boys push the limits. Now im in my mid 30s and have my third daughter on the way. I would never let my kids go play outside in the front yard unsupervised, just for the simple fact that I don't want them getting hit by a car, the oldest is 6, and understands things, but still, that just seems neglectful. It could be because they are girls, and im more protective, but I also just generally gauge a Childs "readiness", and I don't know many 6 year olds that I would be comfortable going to explore my neighborhood without some form of supervision. I also generally despise the use of CPS in this way, but from what I gather, this lady seems like a pain in the a*, and her neighbors clearly do not like her, for whatever reason it is. It doesn't mean they should get CPS involved, but it's honestly shocking that this lady would continue to live in a place like this, it's pretty unreal actually. Not sure what to make of all of this, and it reads like a very one sided piece, would be interesting to hear all the other drama that led to all of this transpiring.

qualeed 1y ago
>but from what I gather, this lady seems like a pain in the a I didn't get this impression at all, why do you think the lady is a pain in the ass..?

comrade1234 1y ago

You're not even allowed to bring your kids to school here in Switzerland. They have to get there on their own. Parents don't intervene in playground fights either - it's lord of the flies here.

em-bee 1y ago
in germany a couple just lost a lawsuit against their city where the they demanded to reinstate a bus service which was closed by the city that their 7 year old had been using. the judge ruled that a 7 year old can take a train alone to go to school.

theturtle 1y ago

Little kids, or more specifically, having them, is a major way for self-important strangers to get in your shit when they have no legal right to. Plaudits to New York, which no longer accepts anonymous complaints due to their massive abuse by exes and busybodies for minimal positive result. I did not actually know Virginia actually did something useful for once (probably didn't notice because I have no children and no interest in them).