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Perhaps not women’s rights, per se, but allowing the culture to portray every possible lifestyle except motherhood as honorable and rewarding definitely caused

Perhaps not women’s rights, per se, but allowing the culture to portray every possible lifestyle except motherhood as honorable and rewarding definitely caused it. You gotta have mamas to have babies.

refulgentis 1y ago
That's a hell of a motte to a bailey. We're not really saying anything anymore other than making a claim its not-honorable to be a mother in the culture (trivially false)
cosmic_cheese 1y ago
I’d point to cultural issues that persist even now making motherhood unenviable, such as the norm of men taking little to no part in child rearing and house duties. Being expected to raise the children, keep the house clean, keep up with laundry, do the grocery shopping, and keep the family fed among other things all on your own while your partner’s day ends after coming home from his 9-to-5 doesn’t sound very pleasant, and a lot of young adult women (especially in East Asia) saw exactly this play out with their parents so it’s only natural if it’s led them to become avoidant.
wrg 1y ago
It really is women's rights per se. I wrote that fully realising I will get downvoted to oblivion for questioning the status quo/consensus but it's so mind-boggling that I can't stay quiet and it helps that this time they're finally connecting the most vital of dots, military capability.
- angmarsbane 1y ago
  There are a few ways to address declining birth rates and removing women's professional opportunities beyond motherhood is a heavy-handed one with heaps of negative trade-offs / externalities of its own.
  - wrg 1y ago
    Please feel free to discuss any such approach that hasn't been tried and failed (such as tax incentives). AFAIK they actually did try various financial incentives in SK (and Japan) with very little to show for it.
angmarsbane 1y ago
My experience has been that women have kids when their lives feel stable and secure like when they have house, and they and their partner are out of school and a couple years into a well-paying, stable job. The longer that stability alludes a woman and/or couple the longer it takes to have children which means fewer or no children.
- MisterMower 1y ago
  That kind of begs the question, doesn’t it? Why are these women choosing more schooling and more years of employment prior to motherhood? It’s almost like the culture is telling them that getting a degree, starting a career, and getting a nice house are goals more worthy than motherhood. And what do the moms that “make it” and do have a kid or two do once they get there? Dump them in daycare because being a stay at home mom just isn’t socially acceptable. Stability is an inherently subjective concept. Ask any third world mother if they’d trade places with a first world mother and the answer would be a resounding yes. Between food stamps, rent assistance, and tax subsidies, there has never been a more stable time to raise a family. But it isnt cool so they don’t do it. This is 100% a culture problem. Women are trained from a young age that becoming an independent working woman is higher status than being a stay at home mom.
  - walls 1y ago
    > That kind of begs the question, doesn’t it? Why are these women choosing more schooling and more years of employment prior to motherhood? They weren't getting to choose before.
    - MisterMower 1y ago
      The comment I was responding to posited that the reason women don’t choose motherhood was a lack of stability. Are you arguing that letting women choose to become educated and join the work force has reduced their ability to start families?
- wrg 1y ago
  Fair argument but easily shot down by the high birth rates in poverty-stricken countries such as India, Pakistan, most states in Africa. Yes it does play a part in birthrates in developed countries and I don't doubt it is a factor in many people not starting families. But the deeper issue isn't economic otherwise it would apply evenly across the board and it simply doesn't.

refulgentis 1y ago

That's a hell of a motte to a bailey. We're not really saying anything anymore other than making a claim its not-honorable to be a mother in the culture (trivially false)

cosmic_cheese 1y ago

I’d point to cultural issues that persist even now making motherhood unenviable, such as the norm of men taking little to no part in child rearing and house duties. Being expected to raise the children, keep the house clean, keep up with laundry, do the grocery shopping, and keep the family fed among other things all on your own while your partner’s day ends after coming home from his 9-to-5 doesn’t sound very pleasant, and a lot of young adult women (especially in East Asia) saw exactly this play out with their parents so it’s only natural if it’s led them to become avoidant.

wrg 1y ago

It really is women's rights per se. I wrote that fully realising I will get downvoted to oblivion for questioning the status quo/consensus but it's so mind-boggling that I can't stay quiet and it helps that this time they're finally connecting the most vital of dots, military capability.

angmarsbane 1y ago
There are a few ways to address declining birth rates and removing women's professional opportunities beyond motherhood is a heavy-handed one with heaps of negative trade-offs / externalities of its own.
- wrg 1y ago
  Please feel free to discuss any such approach that hasn't been tried and failed (such as tax incentives). AFAIK they actually did try various financial incentives in SK (and Japan) with very little to show for it.

angmarsbane 1y ago

My experience has been that women have kids when their lives feel stable and secure like when they have house, and they and their partner are out of school and a couple years into a well-paying, stable job. The longer that stability alludes a woman and/or couple the longer it takes to have children which means fewer or no children.

MisterMower 1y ago
That kind of begs the question, doesn’t it? Why are these women choosing more schooling and more years of employment prior to motherhood? It’s almost like the culture is telling them that getting a degree, starting a career, and getting a nice house are goals more worthy than motherhood. And what do the moms that “make it” and do have a kid or two do once they get there? Dump them in daycare because being a stay at home mom just isn’t socially acceptable. Stability is an inherently subjective concept. Ask any third world mother if they’d trade places with a first world mother and the answer would be a resounding yes. Between food stamps, rent assistance, and tax subsidies, there has never been a more stable time to raise a family. But it isnt cool so they don’t do it. This is 100% a culture problem. Women are trained from a young age that becoming an independent working woman is higher status than being a stay at home mom.
- walls 1y ago
  > That kind of begs the question, doesn’t it? Why are these women choosing more schooling and more years of employment prior to motherhood? They weren't getting to choose before.
  - MisterMower 1y ago
    The comment I was responding to posited that the reason women don’t choose motherhood was a lack of stability. Are you arguing that letting women choose to become educated and join the work force has reduced their ability to start families?
wrg 1y ago
Fair argument but easily shot down by the high birth rates in poverty-stricken countries such as India, Pakistan, most states in Africa. Yes it does play a part in birthrates in developed countries and I don't doubt it is a factor in many people not starting families. But the deeper issue isn't economic otherwise it would apply evenly across the board and it simply doesn't.